Thank you for trusting me with your time and your attention. That has never been something I take lightly.
This chapter of the podcast is closing, but the work and the conversation continues in other ways.
You can find me sharing more day-to-day over on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jessicaduenas24/
And for deeper storytelling and reflection, you’re always welcome to join me on Substack: https://jessicaduenas.substack.com/
In this episode:
I talk about the physical warning signs I ignored while drinking, including my experience with alcoholic liver disease, and the stories I told myself to keep drinking. I share how sobriety forced me to actually listen to my body instead of overriding it with fear, minimization, or control.
Resources:
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless is Sober. I needed a little break, so it is good to be back here with you all.
Jessica Dueñas: Today, I want to talk about this message that I feel like so many of us grew up with, and the message basically sounds like this, right? If you have enough to be grateful for, you don’t get to be sad.
Jessica Dueñas: Or, maybe on the flip side of it, it might be…
Jessica Dueñas: you’re depressed, what do you have to be depressed for? You have a job, you have a roof over your head, your basic needs are met.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? Something along those lines. And I want to start here, because…
Jessica Dueñas: Again, I feel like this belief is so common, and it’s really harmful, especially if you are someone in recovery. So today, we’re talking about gratitude, pain, and honestly, the lie that says that we can only feel one of them at a time.
Jessica Dueñas: So, where the message began for me…
Jessica Dueñas: I’m a first-generation American. My mother, at one point, she was undocumented, she was from Costa Rica, and my father was from Cuba.
Jessica Dueñas: And I share that not to kind of, like, make it all about where they’re from, but to give you all context as
Jessica Dueñas: to regard to the home that I grew up in, right? So, in my house, pretty much emotions, if they weren’t some sort of an expression of joy, they were pretty much shut down. I’ll never forget, there was this moment in high school where I just kept crying. Like, for some reason, my dad was home.
Jessica Dueñas: and my mom was working, and I couldn’t just get over this heavy sadness that was coming over me. And honestly, it was probably the beginning of me struggling with my mental health.
Jessica Dueñas: But I just didn’t have language for that yet, right? And my dad looked at me, and he was very genuinely concerned. And he was like, que paso, you know, what happened?
Jessica Dueñas: And when I told them that I was just sad.
Jessica Dueñas: he really took it to heart. You know, he, you know, he had responded to me in Spanish, but basically, you know, saying, like, I’ve sacrificed so much for you to have everything I didn’t have in Cuba. You have a house, you have clothes, you do well in school, you’re safe. What more could you want? And…
Jessica Dueñas: at that moment, I learned something very clearly and very quickly, that my range of emotions, they were not meant to be shared.
Jessica Dueñas: And for a long time, especially earlier on in my sobriety, I would blame my parents for a lot of my struggles with drinking. I mean, just listen to old episodes of this podcast, and you will definitely see, some of that perspective and that blame still there, right?
Jessica Dueñas: Today, both of them have transitioned.
Jessica Dueñas: And the more that I reflect, the more that I can also hold compassion for them, right? When I think about where they came from and the context in which they lived, they were coming out of survival mode, right? They were living in places and experiencing circumstances where expressing emotions wasn’t
Jessica Dueñas: wasn’t a luxury they could even access, because that wasn’t what they needed to survive. My father, when he asked for permission to leave from Cuba, from the Cuban government, this was in the late 60s.
Jessica Dueñas: as some sort of a punishment, he would explain to me, he was sent from Havana, being a city boy, right, into Oriente, which is, like, the kind of, like, the countryside in Cuba, to go cut sugar cane without pay for 2 years. And then he was released to go to the U.S.
Jessica Dueñas: What that means to me is that my dad didn’t have the space to be talking about his feelings, because he had to make sure that he was cutting sugar cane and cutting it without cutting himself, right? My mother, on the flip side, was a single mother with several children, and she could barely put food on the table, and had to go from place to place, finding places to stay with her and her kids.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? And then she made the decision to come to the U.S,
Jessica Dueñas: leave my older siblings behind, and again, work really hard to just find any dollar she could to put food on the table back in Costa Rica. She did not have the space to be talking about her emotions.
Jessica Dueñas: the way that I am privileged enough to do so, right? For both of my parents, they did not have time to pause and reflect. There was a lot of work that they had to do, like, literal labor.
Jessica Dueñas: And they had to find safety, they had to maintain that safety, and there was pretty much a never-ending pressure to keep moving. The concept of paid time off.
Jessica Dueñas: non-existent for my parents, right? Just embedded days off, no, a day off meant a day without pay. There was no sick leave for them, right? And so.
Jessica Dueñas: In their context, emotions were definitely a luxury, right?
Jessica Dueñas: And… The flip side of that, though, come to me, come to my generation, is that
Jessica Dueñas: I have to recognize and express my emotions. It’s not a luxury, right? For me, it’s an absolute survival necessity. I have to. If I don’t express my emotions, they’re not going to magically disappear.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? Essentially, for me, unexpressed emotions, they go underground, they’re gonna come out sideways, and they’re gonna find alcohol, or they’re gonna find some other behavior, or some other distraction with which to come out.
Jessica Dueñas: And that was a big cycle that I had to break, and that was a big table that I had to turn, essentially.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, I do want to pause for a second and recognize that gratitude
Jessica Dueñas: It is backed by research, right? And gratitude practices, they do support mental health. And I always teach my clients, my coaching clients, that gratitude is a practice to help maintain sobriety.
Jessica Dueñas: However… When gratitude is used to shut someone down.
Jessica Dueñas: and say, no, no, no, your pain doesn’t matter because you have all of this that you need to be grateful for. When people do that.
Jessica Dueñas: Harm is caused, right?
Jessica Dueñas: Someone is silenced. Someone feels alone, someone feels isolated.
Jessica Dueñas: Gratitude does support healing. Silence doesn’t. And what we need to understand is that gratitude and pain, they can absolutely coexist.
Jessica Dueñas: You’ll always hear me saying, two things can be true at once, and this is definitely one of them. I can say the truth about how I feel, and I can still be grateful.
Jessica Dueñas: It means that I’m being honest, it means that I’m finding ways to stay regulated, and it means that I’m figuring out a way to stay sober.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I’ll leave you with this reflection question, which is…
Jessica Dueñas: Take a minute and think, what emotions did you learn that were not allowed growing up? And how might honoring those emotions today be a part of your healing journey? You don’t have to choose between gratitude and your truth. You’re definitely allowed to hold both spaces.
Jessica Dueñas: And if this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs permission to feel what they need to feel.
Jessica Dueñas: And if you’re navigating sobriety, recovery, emotional healing, and you are looking for additional support in the new year, I am opening back up to taking on new clients, so feel free to check out my website, bottomless sober.com.
Jessica Dueñas: And, hopefully I’ll see you. Take care.
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In this episode:
In this episode of Bottomless to Sober, I talk with trauma-informed life coach and author Priscilla María Gutiérrez about breaking generational cycles and healing from trauma in sobriety. We dive into what recovery looks like beyond putting down the bottle—unpacking childhood abuse, eating disorders, and the pressures of the American Dream. We also explore Latina body image, self-worth, and the courage it takes to choose yourself. If you’re a cycle breaker or someone healing from generational trauma, this conversation is for you.
Resources:
Get Priscilla’s Book – Break the Cycle Before It Breaks You
In this episode:
In this episode of Bottomless to Sober, I open up about navigating grief during the holidays while staying committed to my sobriety. After losing my mother earlier this year and experiencing past losses connected to pregnancy, partnership, and family—I share the tools that have helped me stay grounded, present, and alcohol-free.
Resources:
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober.
Jessica Dueñas: Today, I want to talk about something that feels especially present.
Jessica Dueñas: Definitely kind of heavy as we start to move through the holidays, and that is navigating grief and sobriety.
Jessica Dueñas: You might be grieving a parent, a partner, a pregnancy, a loved one, or, I don’t know, even an old version of yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: And this season can bring up a lot.
Jessica Dueñas: Sometimes more than what we expect, and to protect our sobriety, to protect our peace.
Jessica Dueñas: it is good to be prepared and equip ourselves with some tools and some strategies. And so, I’ll share a little bit about what this past year has been like for me, and what’s been helping me move through the grief, especially with the recent loss of my mother, and again, hopefully some practices that might help you as well.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I was talking with my sister and thinking about the fact that a year ago.
Jessica Dueñas: My mother, who at that point was 85 years old, she fell and broke her hip.
Jessica Dueñas: I was pregnant, and I remember as soon as I got the news that she had fallen and broken her hip, before anyone could say anything out loud.
Jessica Dueñas: I understood what a broken hip meant for her.
Jessica Dueñas: I knew it meant that my mother was dying.
Jessica Dueñas: And my body, I think, really knew it, too.
Jessica Dueñas: And so at every OB appointment, my blood pressure was just starting to creep up. And the doctors would talk to me about monitoring for preeclampsia, and I remember thinking, doesn’t it count that my mother is dying? Isn’t… isn’t that what you’re seeing in the numbers?
Jessica Dueñas: But it didn’t matter, right? At the end of the day, my blood pressure was going up, and…
Jessica Dueñas: Yes, my daughter was delivered safely on December 21st, but… I knew.
Jessica Dueñas: And not long after that, on January 25th, my mother did, in fact, pass away.
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the thing.
Jessica Dueñas: Grief has been woven through my entire sobriety journey.
Jessica Dueñas: I entered sobriety after losing a partner directly to his own addiction.
Jessica Dueñas: My father had passed away in 2018, right before I won the Teacher of the Year award.
Jessica Dueñas: before I carried Amara, I had experienced the pregnancy loss.
Jessica Dueñas: And then… came my mother.
Jessica Dueñas: And for a long time, before getting sober, I really believed that grief was the one emotion on this planet that was just unbearable. Too heavy, too much.
Jessica Dueñas: Something that would break me if I let myself feel it.
Jessica Dueñas: And so I used to drink to outrun it, to… to try to soften it, to distract myself from it.
Jessica Dueñas: But sobriety taught me otherwise.
Jessica Dueñas: Sobriety taught me that.
Jessica Dueñas: grief… is heavy.
Jessica Dueñas: But it’s many other things, too.
Jessica Dueñas: yes, it can be a testament to the love that there was, and a lot of times, the people that we lose are also very complex, right? And we have these complex relationships with them. So grief is also…
Jessica Dueñas: The good memories, the hard memories, the things that are familiar, Joy, tenderness.
Jessica Dueñas: Complicated moments. Charged interactions.
Jessica Dueñas: And ultimately, it’s the entire history that existed between the two of you.
Jessica Dueñas: But it’s also the loss of any future memories, right? Of any future interactions. I remember…
Jessica Dueñas: clearly envisioning how I thought my mother meeting Amara would go.
Jessica Dueñas: In that moment that my mother broke her hip.
Jessica Dueñas: I remember placing my hand on my belly.
Jessica Dueñas: Just knowing that that interaction was gone.
Jessica Dueñas: Right.
Jessica Dueñas: And so…
Jessica Dueñas: grief really just carries this weight of how much you cared about this connection with all its flaws, with all its beauty, and…
Jessica Dueñas: Now there’s just this empty space.
Jessica Dueñas: One strategy that has helped me sit with grief, especially when it hits me hard, is pairing it with gratitude.
Jessica Dueñas: And you might be listening to me and thinking, what the hell, Jess? What do you mean, gratitude and grief? So, hear me out. When a wave of…
Jessica Dueñas: of, like, grief hits me, I look for moments of love in my memories, moments of connection, or moments of joy.
Jessica Dueñas: Why? Because it helps to balance the pain, right? And that pain is a reminder of what mattered, but the joy, the grief, and the connection can make me grateful for the fact that I got to experience it in the first place.
Jessica Dueñas: Yes, it can be incredibly hurtful to think about these difficult moments, but the pain is also a reminder that this love was very real. And when we’re able to
Jessica Dueñas: Find a moment of joy, find a moment of celebration, find a moment of gratitude for the fact that this person crossed the planet and was a part of our lives.
Jessica Dueñas: That can help soften that ache.
Jessica Dueñas: So, one of the memories that’s been helping me this season is,
Jessica Dueñas: this memory of my mom. Years ago. I mean, this was so long ago, I was married in my 20s, just for context, right? And I’m now 40. I’ll be 41 in February, so it’s been a long time. But years ago, I had a car wreck, and I needed a car.
Jessica Dueñas: And my ex did not want me to buy a new car with our joint funds. And when I say a new car, you know, a new-to-us kind of car. Just… I was not supposed to have another car because I had had this accident.
Jessica Dueñas: And I remember I was… Feeling really stuck, really powerless, honestly also very pissed off.
Jessica Dueñas: And I had called my mother crying about it, and…
Jessica Dueñas: I didn’t even ask her for help, I just happened to call her and was crying and frustrated. And without me asking, she immediately just said, right? Like, I’ll send you some money so you can get yourself a car.
Jessica Dueñas: In that one sentence, without me even asking for the support, She gave it to me.
Jessica Dueñas: more than what I was expecting. And she also empowered me to have a little independence, right? A little bit of wiggle room when someone else was telling me that, no, I couldn’t do this. She said, yes, you can, here you go.
Jessica Dueñas: There were no questions on her part, there was no judgment.
Jessica Dueñas: And for her, she was not mushy, so this was her act of love. This was her act of empowerment to protect her child.
Jessica Dueñas: And when I told this memory recently, I was telling my partner this, you know, my sister was there, and she jumped in, you know, to say that, that was mommy, that no matter how grown we were.
Jessica Dueñas: Our mother always had our backs. And sitting with that memory explains why the grief does feel so heavy this year, because regardless of our history, the love between my mother and I was incredibly deep, and
Jessica Dueñas: she had my back until she cognitively couldn’t. And her generosity?
Jessica Dueñas: was constant. If she had the shirt on her back and you needed a shirt, she would take it off and pass it on to you. And when I remember that, and when I remember her in that way, that is one of my biggest sources of comfort in this time of the holiday season without a mother.
Jessica Dueñas: So, if you’re navigating grief right now.
Jessica Dueñas: Here are a few practices that have been helping me, in addition to what I just mentioned.
Jessica Dueñas: So, like I said, number one, pair the pain with gratitude. I just gave you an example. When your grief rises, look for the memory that is underneath that, and let that love explain why this is so heavy.
Jessica Dueñas: Number two, Let multiple emotions exist at once.
Jessica Dueñas: Give yourself permission to laugh and grieve in the same breath.
Jessica Dueñas: you are human, you are not one-dimensional. You can absolutely enjoy a present moment and still miss someone. So if someone comes at you trying to say that you’re grieving the wrong way, or that you don’t look like you’re grieving, please ignore whatever they are saying, and remember that
Jessica Dueñas: There is no right way to do this. You’re existing, therefore you’re doing it right.
Jessica Dueñas: Number 3, notice the traits of your loved ones that still live on in you.
Jessica Dueñas: I love thinking about this. I remember one time in a staff meeting, I said that my guilty pleasure is noticing the parts of me that remind me of my mom, especially when I am with my sister, Sophia, because mommy had a sharp tongue.
Jessica Dueñas: And she… she did not hold back. And I definitely inherited that sharpness of the tongue. However, I’m sober, I’m in recovery, I gotta practice that pause, right? But sometimes what I will do after I practice the pause and, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: held my breath. I will run to my sister, and I will say to her, let me tell you what I would have said in this situation. And then the two of us have a good old laugh.
Jessica Dueñas: And in those moments.
Jessica Dueñas: my mother feels close. She feels like she’s here because I feel like I’m carrying her on with me. Just, you know, in a careful manner.
Jessica Dueñas: But number four, allow grief to change over time.
Jessica Dueñas: The first holiday without someone is hard.
Jessica Dueñas: The second one might be different. It might still be hard. We don’t know. Your grief might get softer, your grief might get heavier, your grief might surprise you. Let it do whatever it’s going to do without judgment. Just get curious, just observe, and roll with it.
Jessica Dueñas: And as I moved through this first holiday season without my mom.
Jessica Dueñas: you know, I was just joking earlier about kind of inheriting her tongue, right? But I do keep an eye out for the things that she passed down to me, the ones that I’m very grateful to have and to carry forward.
Jessica Dueñas: Number one, my mom was a very generous person. If she had it, she shared it. And I… I’ve come to realize that
Jessica Dueñas: that’s in me, too. Sometimes I’m not going to be the mushiest person. I am mushier than my mom, though, but I definitely have a streak of sharing when I feel…
Jessica Dueñas: Grateful and connected to others.
Jessica Dueñas: My mom was brilliant with numbers. She could budget, save, and plan with ease, and do a lot with a little. And now that I’m a mom, now that I’m a business owner, I’m starting to feel those instincts in me, right? The math…
Jessica Dueñas: I enjoy doing a budget, which sounds really weird, but I really… I love budgeting, and I think that that comes from her.
Jessica Dueñas: And then my mom’s loyalty.
Jessica Dueñas: She keeps a small circle, or she kept a small circle.
Jessica Dueñas: And there was a lot of love in that small circle, and that’s… that’s me. I thrive in small circles, I don’t have large friend groups, and…
Jessica Dueñas: I’m good with that.
Jessica Dueñas: So, with that said, if you feel ready, or even curious.
Jessica Dueñas: I want to invite you to reflect on a few questions about a loved one.
Jessica Dueñas: what were some qualities that your loved one brought into the world, right? How are they a gift to others?
Jessica Dueñas: Which of those qualities are you still carrying, or can you nurture?
Jessica Dueñas: And how does it feel when you notice that quality rise up in you?
Jessica Dueñas: I’m not going to lie, these questions are not going to get rid of the pain, but…
Jessica Dueñas: they can help you reframe everything, right? And sometimes that’s the most tender thing that we can offer ourselves, is a reframe.
Jessica Dueñas: So, if you’re carrying grief this season, you all, thank you again for listening. If you’re carrying this grief in sobriety.
Jessica Dueñas: I want you to know you’re not alone.
Jessica Dueñas: Your grief does not make you weak.
Jessica Dueñas: It means that you love deeply. It means that you’re human.
Jessica Dueñas: And it means that you’re… you’re on a healing journey.
Jessica Dueñas: So, thanks for being here with me. If the episode resonated, feel free to share it with someone who might need it. Until next time, thanks.
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Link to Spotify
In this episode:
In this episode of Bottomless to Sober, I’m talking about how to say no to alcohol during the holidays and protect your boundaries when others don’t respect them. In my near five years sober, I’ve been to countless parties, family gatherings, and work events where alcohol was front and center—and I know how uncomfortable it can feel when people question your choices or push you to drink. I’ll share how I navigate those moments with confidence and self-respect, without needing to overexplain or defend my sobriety. Whether you’re new to recovery, sober curious, or simply choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle, this episode will help you protect your peace and enjoy the holidays on your own terms.
Resources:
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. For today’s episode, I want to discuss the idea of how to say no to alcohol during the holidays, and in addition to that, how to hold the boundary when people don’t listen.
Jessica Dueñas: Because here’s the thing. As holidays roll in, what are you going to start getting? A ton of invitations, right? Potentially. Sometimes it’s from workplaces, sometimes it’s from friends, sometimes it’s from family. And what often comes up with these invitations, once you’re physically in these spaces.
Jessica Dueñas: is that classic question, can I get you a drink?
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the other thing.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m an open book about my addiction and recovery.
Jessica Dueñas: At the same time, I also recognize that, number one, not everyone wants to
Jessica Dueñas: tell their story, and number two, not everyone needs to share their story, right? Like, that is totally fine. Whatever your reasons are for not drinking, they’re valid, and they are yours to hold, and you don’t owe anyone an explanation.
Jessica Dueñas: But with that said, it can be really helpful to have a few phrases ready, especially if you’re not in a space to dive into your life story every time someone offers you a drink.
Jessica Dueñas: So, here are a few ways to decline a drink this season.
Jessica Dueñas: Number one, I’m not drinking tonight.
Jessica Dueñas: No, as you’ve probably heard a bunch of times, it’s a complete sentence. It’s a good enough response.
Jessica Dueñas: And I know you’ve heard that before, but if you’re listening to this, chances are that you might still also be looking for what else to say, so keep listening.
Jessica Dueñas: Number two, I noticed even one drink really messes with my sleep.
Jessica Dueñas: And listen, at this point in our lives, no one’s arguing with better sleep, okay?
Jessica Dueñas: Number 3.
Jessica Dueñas: I started a new medication and can’t drink with it. This one’s a great one, except you just be warned that sometimes someone might still be nosy and ask, oh, what is your medication for? So really only use this one if you’re comfortable.
Jessica Dueñas: Number 4?
Jessica Dueñas: Even one drink gives me a headache lately. And here’s the thing, you’ll probably get a few, you know, responses saying, same here with that one. The older people get as time passes.
Jessica Dueñas: our bodies are not meant to be digesting alcohol, and so we do start to get bigger side effects as time passes. So you’ll probably have folks say, yeah, I get really bad headaches too. Another example, alcohol just hasn’t felt good lately, so I’m taking 30 days off to see how I feel.
Jessica Dueñas: What I like about this is that it’s low pressure, but it still communicates intentionality.
Jessica Dueñas: And then in the last two that I have, I’m driving tonight.
Jessica Dueñas: That one is very simple. That one’s practical, and I mean, that one’s really questioned. If someone is trying to get you to drink, knowing that you have to drive.
Jessica Dueñas: you kind of have to give that person a side-eye at this point, because it takes very little alcohol to be over the legal limit or close to it. It, you know, drinking and driving is never, ever safe.
Jessica Dueñas: And then lastly, I’m focusing on my health right now. This keeps it grounded, it keeps it general.
Jessica Dueñas: What I will say, though, to be honest, and my experience, is that most of the time, people don’t actually care what we are drinking.
Jessica Dueñas: But, every now and then, our decision not to drink can definitely activate something in others. Sometimes it activates curiosity, sometimes it activates some defensiveness, or even pressure.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I want you to recognize is that if someone does care so much about your drinking or not drinking, that they’re pushy or they’re dismissive, that often says.
Jessica Dueñas: relationship with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: Than yours with not drinking.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, please don’t go to the next person and say, oh.
Jessica Dueñas: Is my decision to get sober impacting you? Please don’t. But what I am saying is that there might be something there, right? And we never know what other people are going through. And that’s the thing. Sometimes our choice to abstain holds up a mirror that others are not ready to look into. And guess what? That is not yours to manage. That is their issue. You don’t own other people’s responses.
Jessica Dueñas: To your decision not to drink.
Jessica Dueñas: So, that’s honestly why it helps to know what you want to say before you’re in the moment.
Jessica Dueñas: Grab a mirror, practice a few of these out loud so that they can feel natural rolling off your tongue, and decide which one is best for you. You might be surprised at how empowered you feel when you protect your piece with some confidence.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, let’s talk about what happens when someone does not take your no seriously.
Jessica Dueñas: This is the opportunity that you get to actually practice holding a boundary.
Jessica Dueñas: When we talk about boundaries, I… it’s super important to remember that boundaries are not about controlling other people.
Jessica Dueñas: We cannot make anyone else do anything. But what you can do is take action when someone crosses the line. And essentially, that is what a boundary is. You have a limit if someone… you communicate what the limit is. When that limit is passed or crossed by another individual.
Jessica Dueñas: What do you do to protect that limit? That is what setting and holding a boundary looks like.
Jessica Dueñas: Melissa Urban, who is the author of the Book of Boundaries, she uses something called a stoplight model, which I love because it’s a very simple and effective way to think about escalating boundary actions to protect your boundary. So, let’s break it down.
Jessica Dueñas: When we talk about the stoplight model, right, think about the green light, it’s level one. It’s a gentle reminder to someone else that, hey, I said this was my limit, and just a friendly reminder, this is my limit. So this might sound like, hey, I said I’m not drinking tonight. I’d love for you to respect that.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? Low level, nothing escalating here. It’s light, it’s calm, it gives the other person a chance to course correct and honor your limit.
Jessica Dueñas: But let’s say they’re a little hard-headed, so they continue, and now we move up to a yellow light, so we’re at level 2.
Jessica Dueñas: Here, you’re giving a clear warning.
Jessica Dueñas: paired with the consequence of what you are prepared to do. You’re basically letting them know what will happen. So, here, it might sound like…
Jessica Dueñas: If you offer me a drink again, I’m going to have to step away from this conversation.
Jessica Dueñas: Again, you’re making it clear what you are prepared to do if they don’t respect your boundary.
Jessica Dueñas: You’re not telling that other person, I need you to stop drinking, right?
Jessica Dueñas: Level 3…
Jessica Dueñas: here we are at the red light. The person still is insisting that you need to have this drink for whatever reason. And so, this is your opportunity to take action, this is where you follow through, hold your boundary, and pass on the message to others that you are protecting yourself. So at this point.
Jessica Dueñas: if this individual were to keep pushing, you have to take the action you already mentioned. So, in this conversation, it would look like the person going ahead and walking away, I’ll talk… since you’re going to continue offering me alcohol, I’ll talk to you later, right? Something like that.
Jessica Dueñas: So maybe it is leaving the conversation. Maybe it is moving to another part of the room. Maybe it is heading home early.
Jessica Dueñas: The… the key here is…
Jessica Dueñas: integrity, right? Or I wouldn’t even say integrity, I feel like that’s not a good word choice, but the key is that your actions have to match with what you say. So, only name consequences
Jessica Dueñas: That you are genuinely willing to follow through on, because what happens is, if you are consistent in that you do what you say you’re going to do, that’s going to build self-trust for yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: But it’s also going to show other people that when you say, this is my limit, you genuinely mean it. And I guess that’s where I would say the integrity piece comes in, that people will start to see that you say what you mean, and you mean what you say.
Jessica Dueñas: Because here it is.
Jessica Dueñas: Boundaries, they are about protecting your peace. You’re not trying to punish other people, you’re not trying to tell them what to do, but what your boundaries do is that they remind you and the people around you that your no does have legitimate weight.
Jessica Dueñas: And that your well-being matters more than anyone’s temporary discomfort.
Jessica Dueñas: So… Let’s imagine this.
Jessica Dueñas: You are at your office holiday party.
Jessica Dueñas: And a coworker insists.
Jessica Dueñas: Come on, just one drink, it’s the holidays.
Jessica Dueñas: And so you smile, and your level 1 response is, thanks, I’m good with my soda tonight. Right? Again, that’s light, calm, setting the limit, and letting the other person know that you are not engaging with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, this coworker turns around and says, ugh, seriously? Don’t be so boring.
Jessica Dueñas: So now, it’s time for your level 2, write the yellow light. I’ve already said no. If you keep asking, I’m gonna step outside for a bit.
Jessica Dueñas: And, if this coworker still doesn’t stop.
Jessica Dueñas: You take that level 3 action. You grab your jacket, you go outside, you take a deep breath, you remind yourself, this is what protecting your piece looks like, maybe this is when you text a friend for accountability or for support, and also, let this be a reminder that you don’t need to stay at the dang party.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? You can go. You can absolutely go.
Jessica Dueñas: So with that, I want to close out with some reflection questions.
Jessica Dueñas: For you to think about and journal with for yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: So number one, when have you felt pressured to explain a personal decision that you didn’t owe anyone?
Jessica Dueñas: Number two, how do you want to feel when you say no to something that is not helpful for you?
Jessica Dueñas: Number three, what are your stoplight level boundaries, right? What are your level 1, your level 2, and your level 3 actions when someone pushes your boundaries this holiday season?
Jessica Dueñas: And most importantly, What does protecting your peace look like for you?
Jessica Dueñas: And I want to remind you…
Jessica Dueñas: that, for this holiday season, saying no to alcohol, I promise you, you are not depriving yourselves. This is about your liberation. You are choosing clarity, you are choosing peace, you are choosing alignment, you are choosing better health.
Jessica Dueñas: And that is a gift that’s gonna go well beyond this holiday season.
Jessica Dueñas: And if this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend who might need a little support navigating this season alcohol-free. And as always, thank you for hanging out with me, and I will catch you on the next episode.
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In this episode:
I share a deeply personal reflection inspired by a quote I saw online: “If you have daughters, you can’t be a bitch to yourself about your looks anymore.” As a sober mom raising my daughter, Amara, I talk about what it means to model peace instead of self-criticism and how recovery has helped me redefine beauty, strength, and worth. This episode is for anyone learning to replace self-judgment with compassion and to say, “I am enough.”
Resources:
The Instagram Post That Inspired This Episode
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. Today, I want to talk about something that’s been really at the top of mind for me since I saw it come up on my feed. It was a post on Instagram, and it said.
Jessica Dueñas: If you have daughters, You can’t be a bitch to yourself about your looks anymore.
Jessica Dueñas: You gotta keep that to yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: That’s right, girls. Mommy is beautiful and perfect.
Jessica Dueñas: The funny thing is that it made me laugh at first, but it also gave me pause.
Jessica Dueñas: Because it’s so true.
Jessica Dueñas: And since I’ve read that post, I really can’t stop thinking about what it really means.
Jessica Dueñas: Amara and I, we just got back from a weekend in Louisville, Kentucky, and I love that place, right? It’s a city that I lived in for 8 years, it’s become a second home to me after New York, and I was so deeply involved in Louisville as the Kentucky State Teacher of the Year.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s also the place where I completely imploded under the weight of my alcohol addiction. And when I left Louisville in 2020,
Jessica Dueñas: That was a part of me getting sober.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s… it’s a special place to me, because again.
Jessica Dueñas: everything I built in my career, I built it there, and that’s also where everything fell apart. But…
Jessica Dueñas: I love to go back there, and especially this time, I mean, I came back very different. I came back to the city that I once broken as a mom, right, with Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: It was only Amara’s second airplane trip, and it’s… it’s so cool watching her experience the world.
Jessica Dueñas: especially these moments of uncertainty that she has, right? She’s only 10 months old, and when she has these moments of… of panic, almost.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I can reassure her, it reminds me of how much of a safe space I’ve become for her.
Jessica Dueñas: There were definitely times when loud noises startled her.
Jessica Dueñas: Or she woke up from a nap completely disoriented, and her little arms were flailing, her eyes went so wide, almost like she wanted to say, Mom, where the F am I, right? But then as soon as her eyes found mine, and we just made eye contact, I would place my hand on her cheek, and I would just say.
Jessica Dueñas: you’re safe.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m here.
Jessica Dueñas: And she would just soften up. Her eyes would soften, her body would relax, and then she’d just plop her head back down on my chest.
Jessica Dueñas: And that’s what I did again and again on this trip.
Jessica Dueñas: I continued to have opportunities to ground her in safety.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? She can’t do it for herself, so I get to do it for her as her mother. And every time I said those words, you’re safe, I’m here, I felt so powerful. I mean, I felt badass. There was just…
Jessica Dueñas: this sense of a deep steadiness that came up in me whenever I had the opportunity to ground her.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I realized is that that steadiness, it’s a feeling that is very familiar to me in sobriety.
Jessica Dueñas: it’s a feeling of being anchored, right? Just that I am grounded enough that my feet are so grounded, I’m so planted, that no one can walk over me, push me down, or make me doubt myself. Almost like being a tree.
Jessica Dueñas: But the truth is… There are other moments for me.
Jessica Dueñas: quieter moments, When I don’t feel so rooted.
Jessica Dueñas: It happens to me when I look in the mirror.
Jessica Dueñas: And instead of appreciating the strength that I have built in these 9 postpartum months, that
Jessica Dueñas: that I’ve been active.
Jessica Dueñas: then my eyes will do something, like, go straight to my stomach, right? And I focus on what’s soft, what’s dimpling, and what lacks definition. And then my hand reaches to grab it.
Jessica Dueñas: And suddenly, That’s not my hand anymore.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s my mother’s.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I hear her voice saying.
Jessica Dueñas: Tienes que revajar y si estas gorda.
Jessica Dueñas: You need to lose weight. You’re fat.
Jessica Dueñas: And just as I am about to agree with that old voice, I think of Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: I think of what she’ll see if she grows up watching her mother pick herself apart.
Jessica Dueñas: How could I tell Amara, she’s perfect as she is.
Jessica Dueñas: if I can’t believe it about myself.
Jessica Dueñas: That’s when I remember the way she looks at me on that plane, how anchored she feels when I tell her, you’re safe, I’m here.
Jessica Dueñas: And I have to remind myself.
Jessica Dueñas: I am enough as I am.
Jessica Dueñas: Because the truth is, that quote, mommy is beautiful and perfect.
Jessica Dueñas: that… it’s not about modeling vanity, right? We’re not here to, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: create big-headed children, so to speak. And if they are, oh well. But it’s not about modeling vanity, it’s about modeling peace, and that’s why that quote stuck with me so much. It’s about modeling peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Because there are some real risks, right, to passing down that sense of not enoughness.
Jessica Dueñas: I know what it’s like to drink to escape myself.
Jessica Dueñas: to numb the belief that I wasn’t acceptable, that something in me was broken.
Jessica Dueñas: And… I want something better for Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: But… What does better look like?
Jessica Dueñas: for me, Better means… I don’t diet.
Jessica Dueñas: Even when my inner critic’s voice is really loud.
Jessica Dueñas: For me, Better means? I move my body for joy.
Jessica Dueñas: Not punishment.
Jessica Dueñas: For me, better means that I listen when my body says, enough.
Jessica Dueñas: And I want to point out.
Jessica Dueñas: That that is discipline in and of itself.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s just a different kind.
Jessica Dueñas: But it also means…
Jessica Dueñas: But I have to monitor my thoughts, and I have to work to catch the comparisons, and I have to work to reframe the criticism. And most days, you all, that’s pretty manageable, but some days, that’s still really damn hard work.
Jessica Dueñas: Because in one way, it’s easier to put down the alcohol and not drink again, because for me, it’s very simple. Either I drink or I don’t, and I don’t need alcohol to live.
Jessica Dueñas: But, my relationship with my body, that’s an everyday thing. That fluctuates. That goes up and down.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, in terms of wanting better for Amara, specifically.
Jessica Dueñas: What I envisioned for her is a life with less noise in the head.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? A quieter mind. I imagine her looking in the mirror someday.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe her hand lands on her belly.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe for a moment, that hand on her belly?
Jessica Dueñas: does become mine.
Jessica Dueñas: But instead of criticism, What she gets to feel is gentleness.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe she’ll hear my voice saying, You’re perfect, as you are.
Jessica Dueñas: And she believes it.
Jessica Dueñas: Little noise. Very little debate.
Jessica Dueñas: Just peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Thanks for listening, y’all, to today’s episode. If it moved you, or if you found that it was helpful for you, please share it with someone else who’s working on healing their relationship with themselves. Until next time, take care, and remember, you are enough.
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In this episode:
In this episode of Bottomless to Sober, I talk about why “rock bottom” is a myth and how recovery doesn’t have to wait for a crisis. I share how I kept finding new lows in my own journey and what it really means to stop digging and start healing. I also offer guidance for those watching someone they love struggle—how to protect your peace when their “bottom” isn’t enough for them to change.
Resources:
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. I wanted to start today’s question with… or today’s question. I wanted to start today’s episode with a question.
Jessica Dueñas: And that question is, if any of you have ever said to yourselves.
Jessica Dueñas: This has to be it. This is my rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: Only to find that somehow there… there’s still more, right? There’s still something way below that, and then another level below that. And it kind of just keeps going to infinity. And no, the honest truth is it doesn’t go till infinity, because
Jessica Dueñas: Really, when we’re talking about situations such as addiction, right, the ultimate bottom is the loss of life.
Jessica Dueñas: But there are many levels of bottoms that a person can hit before getting to that point, to that point of tragedy.
Jessica Dueñas: Going back to that question, though, right, like…
Jessica Dueñas: Have any of you ever said to yourselves, this is it, this is my rock bottom? I’ll be the first one to say, I have been there many times.
Jessica Dueñas: I don’t even know how many times I’ve experienced something that I did as a result of my drinking, and then I convinced myself that that was my bottom, and I would never do it again, only to then land in the exact same position, if not worse.
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, there was my blackout and hospital stay in , very early on in my complicated journey with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: Years later, as we start to approach when I eventually get sober, my diagnosis of alcoholic liver disease in …
Jessica Dueñas: Mind you, that was the same year that I was supposed to give a TED-Ed talk for the first time, but instead I had to check myself into rehab, so I didn’t get to give that talk.
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the thing, even after all of that, I still relapsed.
Jessica Dueñas: I remember in one of my spirals, under the influence, I ran back to an ex’s house. This ex was definitely not a safe person.
Jessica Dueñas: And I was sort of in just this entangled space.
Jessica Dueñas: with my romance… with my romantic life at the time. And there was a journalist who had also kind of caught my eye, and I had texted the reporter, and I was like, hey, I’m in this really bad spot, I need you to come save me.
Jessica Dueñas: And he did. You know, he came, he pulled me out of that ex’s home.
Jessica Dueñas: And even got the police involved, and that was so messy. Like, I remember just being in tears.
Jessica Dueñas: drunk, I don’t even know what I was wearing, you know, whatever I was on, barely clothed, I feel, if I really think about that memory. And I was just shattered.
Jessica Dueñas: And I thought, that was my bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I drank again.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I went into rehab again.
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the thing…
Jessica Dueñas: I used to definitely think that rock bottom was one single moment, and that whether it was for me or for anyone else experiencing a so-called bottom, that… that would be the moment where the light bulb will go off and, you know, I would suddenly be scared straight.
Jessica Dueñas: But… that’s just not the case. And so, you know, I hear people say, I hit rock bottom often.
Jessica Dueñas: But my… my thought really is, I don’t know that a bottom really exists, honestly.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, with that said, I feel like the truth is that
Jessica Dueñas: We’re digging, we’re digging ourselves deeper every time that we continue to pick up and continue to use or continue to drink, and that eventually we… we…
Jessica Dueñas: We are the ones that have that choice.
Jessica Dueñas: to…
Jessica Dueñas: recognize that maybe we need to seek help, right? That we don’t have to keep digging before we decide to seek help to help us stop.
Jessica Dueñas: And so I want to think about that a little bit.
Jessica Dueñas: Like, I don’t know, maybe you are someone who has sworn that this will be the last time that you wake up hungover.
Jessica Dueñas: And you just find yourself drinking a few days later.
Jessica Dueñas: Maybe you’re like me, and you promised yourself you would never go back to your ex, and then the loneliness mixed in with a little alcohol convinced you otherwise.
Jessica Dueñas: or… maybe you’ve watched someone else, maybe someone you love, like I did with my boyfriend Ian.
Jessica Dueñas: Truly believed that they had hit a bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: Only to find themselves slipping right back into the same pain they swore they’d escaped.
Jessica Dueñas: And I will say, Ian, he did hit a bottom, right? He… he did not… Outlive his addiction.
Jessica Dueñas: And so I say that to say that
Jessica Dueñas: A true bottom for me, like I said earlier, is a loss of life. But in the meantime.
Jessica Dueñas: There’s lots of digging that we can do before we get to that point, and
Jessica Dueñas: it’s so important to recognize that we don’t have to keep digging, right? If we find ourselves having a repeated
Jessica Dueñas: back-to-back breaking point, or a back-to-back setback. It doesn’t mean that we’re hopeless.
Jessica Dueñas: But it does mean that we’re human, right? Because this recovery journey, this growth journey that we’re all on, it’s not linear. And so, sometimes it’s going to take more than one massive setback before we finally are just
Jessica Dueñas: tapping out and saying, that’s it, I’m done, I really need some help.
Jessica Dueñas: I remember in , when I ended up in that hospital bed, I was recently married, and we recently got a house, and I was just so excited for our future together.
Jessica Dueñas: And everything came to a pause when I found myself in that hospital bed, because immediately, I wondered if I was worthy of my marriage, if I was worthy of this relationship, if I was worthy of everything that I had, because I judged myself so harshly.
Jessica Dueñas: for… Having a problem with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: I genuinely believe that I was less than because of it, and I was so ashamed.
Jessica Dueñas: And I remember in my head thinking, like, how could I possibly get here? Like, how could I possibly black out, have my then-husband find me, and call ? Because I blacked out and passed out, right? And he was terrified for me.
Jessica Dueñas: how could I do that? I’ll never do that again. That’s what I said back then, in . My sobriety date is November 28th, , so that goes to show you that we might say one thing, but what we actually end up doing can be entirely different.
Jessica Dueñas: That moment… That was supposed to be my rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: But it wasn’t.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I’ve learned between my experiences and those of all the people I work with in sobriety meeting groups and in coaching people one-on-one is that
Jessica Dueñas: the rock bottom idea, it’s not even about how far you fall, but really, it’s about when you decide to stop digging yourself deeper, right? It’s that moment that you decide that
Jessica Dueñas: You’re gonna start building.
Jessica Dueñas: And, you know, when I look back at the young woman that ended up in the hospital, Terrified.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m not even mad at her.
Jessica Dueñas: You know, she was doing the best that she could with what she had. She was stressed out, no way to cope, no education on how to cope in a healthy way. So, she was doing the best with the tools that she had.
Jessica Dueñas: And I know some of you might be listening right now, you know, trying to survive yourselves.
Jessica Dueñas: Even when you are breaking your own promises. And so I hope that you hear me when I say this, that you are not broken, you are not alone.
Jessica Dueñas: when you have a setback, when you hit yet a new level of rock bottom, consider that the invitation to try again. Consider that an invitation to ask yourself, what have I not tried in order to get sober?
Jessica Dueñas: Because what I promise you is this.
Jessica Dueñas: When you think that you’ve hit a rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: If you’re still here, if you’re still alive, if you are still breathing, the unfortunate truth is that things can get worse, right? But they really don’t have to.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, you don’t have to wait for another heartbreak as a result of your alcohol or drug use. You don’t have to wait for another fall, or another hospital visit, or another trip to rehab. You don’t have to wait until you get a scary diagnosis as a result of your drinking. You don’t.
Jessica Dueñas: You, you can stop digging right now.
Jessica Dueñas: And you can start building.
Jessica Dueñas: Even from the middle of a mess.
Jessica Dueñas: And I hope that if you remember even just one thing from this episode of me rambling, that it’s just this. You don’t have to wait for things to get worse.
Jessica Dueñas: Before you start to make them better.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, before we wrap up, I just want to speak to those of you who might be
Jessica Dueñas: Watching someone that you love struggle.
Jessica Dueñas: someone who, maybe, according to you, has hit what you thought would be a rock bottom, and you’re like, alright, well, now they’re gonna go get their… get their lives together. But…
Jessica Dueñas: your loved one doesn’t see that they hit a so-called rock bottom, right? Maybe they got a DUI, and they’re still out there drinking. And you’re like, what? How is this not, like, clicking for them?
Jessica Dueñas: I know how painful that is. Trust me. It is so hard to watch someone drown while you are standing there on the shore.
Jessica Dueñas: Screaming for them to… swim towards you, right? It’s one of the hardest forms of heartbreak.
Jessica Dueñas: I…
Jessica Dueñas: I can’t even tell you how hard it is to love someone who is not ready to save themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I’ve learned…
Jessica Dueñas: Both from being that person who’s drowning, but also from loving others who have been there.
Jessica Dueñas: Is that you… you can’t make someone see their bottom, and you cannot drag them into clarity.
Jessica Dueñas: What you can do is stand in truth.
Jessica Dueñas: What you can do is be compassionate.
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes, support looks like you needing to set a boundary that protects your own peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Or maybe it looks like you refusing to participate in their chaos?
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes you do have to remove yourself, right? Sometimes you might have to say, I love you too much to watch you destroy yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: Love does not always mean rescue, and sometimes love means stepping back.
Jessica Dueñas: So they can finally feel the ground for themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: we… we can’t force people to believe that they’ve hit a bottom, and everyone’s path is different, everyone is… everyone’s journey is different. We don’t know when they’re going to finally say enough.
Jessica Dueñas: But we can model what it looks like to live differently, right? We can show them what hope looks like, and when they’re ready.
Jessica Dueñas: They can remember the person who stood in compassion without losing themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, if you want some reflection questions, feel free to grab a notebook and press pause if you need to, but here’s just some reflection questions to take with you for…
Jessica Dueñas: Until the next episode.
Jessica Dueñas: So my first question is, when was the last time that you thought, this has to be my bottom? And what did that moment feel like in your body?
Jessica Dueñas: What was your body trying to tell you?
Jessica Dueñas: What small whisper inside you knows when it’s time to change? And do you listen to it, or do you quiet that whisper?
Jessica Dueñas: And what would it look like to take one small step toward healing today?
Jessica Dueñas: But anyway…
Jessica Dueñas: I would like to thank you all for spending this time with me. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with someone who might need to hear that they are not alone, and again, remember, you do not have to wait to hit
Jessica Dueñas: Any kind of so-called bottom before you decide to start to get back up.
Jessica Dueñas: Thanks, everyone. Appreciate your time today. Have a good one.
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In this episode:
In this deeply moving episode of Bottomless to Sober, I sit down with Navy veteran, men’s coach, and fellow TEDx speaker Alex Lange, a man in recovery who opens up about losing his 18-month-old son, Liam, and how grief reshaped his life. Alex shares his process for healing and how he transformed unimaginable pain into purpose. We also talk about breaking the stigma around death, redefining masculinity through vulnerability, and what it truly means to live fully in the present moment.
Resources:
Watch Alex’s TEDx Talk – Transforming Pain Into Purpose
Jessica’s Links:
Watch Jessica’s TEDx Talk – What’s Success Without Self-Worth
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. Appreciate all of you joining.
Jessica Dueñas: Before we start.
Jessica Dueñas: Just a heads up that today’s conversation does come with a heavy content warning, so if this is not the episode for you, I completely understand. But we will be talking about the death of a child, so if you do choose to continue to listen, please take good care of yourself and listen in a way that feels safe for you.
Jessica Dueñas: With that said, I am very honored and excited to be joined by Alex Lang. He is a Navy veteran, a men’s coach, and a speaker. We crossed paths just recently because we were both fellow TEDx speakers, and honestly, you all, his talk on turning pain into purpose, I mean, it left an impression on the audience, but it also really left an impression on me, and so I really want
Jessica Dueñas: wanted to give him some space to share a little bit about himself and his work, in case any of you need to listen to this message today. He and his wife lost their son, Liam.
Jessica Dueñas: at just 18 months to… it was a rare, undetected heart defect that Leanne was born with, and Alex shares his story, honestly, to help others find meaning, connection, and healing in the midst of grief. And a lot of people, struggle with that, and so I’m just so…
Jessica Dueñas: I’m honored to have Alex here and kind of continue that conversation. So, Alex, thanks for joining. Hello, hello.
Alex Lange: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I just want to say first, before I get into this, I told you at the TEDx event that I wholeheartedly do believe that people are put in our life as mirrors.
Alex Lange: And it’s an honor to be on this podcast, because it does hold a place for me, not just personally, within my own recovery and how I was numbing my own pain, but growing up in a broken home with my mother, who was a drug addict, and she passed away from drugs, and then my dad being an alcoholic, so…
Alex Lange: it was… it was a big, integral part of my life, and then just hearing your own story, and how you’ve overcome it, and how you’ve shared, and then you’ve just been welcomed through your sharing, that is healing in itself. So, listening to your talk, I told my… I told my wife, I told my sisters who were there, I was like, hey, this is the talk you need to be at, because she can rel… you know, she shows everything, what we’ve been going through, and just talking about it, so thank you.
Jessica Dueñas: Oh, no, thank you, Alex. And so, for my listeners who may be new to you, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, and share a little bit about your story and Liam’s story?
Alex Lange: Absolutely. So I’m a father, father of five, husband, 13 and a half year Navy veteran, as Jessica said. I live in the Dominican Republic. I am a writer, speaker, podcaster, men’s coach, post-military. And, I just, real quick, as I shined in my childhood.
Alex Lange: I grew up in a broken home, my mother was a drug addict, my father was an alcoholic, and so for me.
Alex Lange: Chaos was what I knew.
Alex Lange: And I am a firm believer as people that we learn… we’re conditioned at a young age from the people that raise us, from those relationships that we’re around, and I learned how to cope effectively a lot with a lot of the challenges that I had in my life. My dad wasn’t there, he was providing, he was a financial provider, but he wasn’t there emotionally, physically, and mentally. And my wife, or excuse me, my wife, my mother was, she was a drug addict, and so…
Alex Lange: we did more parenting to her than she did to us, and I… that’s my whole life, that’s all I knew with regards to my mother as a drug addict.
Alex Lange: That kind of sets the story, because for my whole life, up until Liam, as we talked about, my… I coped through all of the pain that I had in my life.
Alex Lange: And we’ll talk about 2021, which was the breaking point for me and the future here, but Liam…
Alex Lange: being able to sit with it. In February of this year, we were in Cyprus. We were a full-time traveling family. Seven of us traveled around the world, we sold everything, we were traveling Europe, went to Africa, and made our way to Cyprus, which is a small island across from Israel.
Alex Lange: And, we were there for a month, and the last day before we were leaving to go to Turkey, we were packing.
Alex Lange: And my sons, I have 5 kids, as I mentioned, my two oldest sons were playing with their little brother, and they were pushing him on an empty suitcase.
Alex Lange: And they were, they were pushing them around, and there was a doormat.
Alex Lange: And the suitcase got caught up on the doormat, and Liam fell, and he busted his lip. Really bad cut, it went through… it went through his, lip, and you could see it on his chin. And so, my… we took him to my wife, because he was still breastfeeding primarily, and…
Alex Lange: he wasn’t… he wasn’t breastfeeding. And so we… we were like, okay, let’s just give him a little bit of time, we’ll give him some water, do some other, you know, give him some other forms of food to try to see if he’ll… he’ll eat, but he was refusing everything. But he was calm the whole day.
Alex Lange: And so, for 14 and a half hours, he refused to eat consistently, consistently. That night, for the first time in his life, he went to bed without
Alex Lange: a boob, you know, he was breastfeeding, so he went to bed by himself, and we were like, wow, that’s so crazy. Like, that’s interesting.
Alex Lange: You know, we were aware that dehydration is a thing, so we were like, hey, we need to try to get him to eat, especially that we’re traveling the next day.
Alex Lange: And so it was about 11 p.m. at night, and my wife says, because he started crying because he wasn’t eating, my wife said, hey, go to the other room with the boys, and get some sleep, because we have a long travel day. I’ll stay up with him, and I’ll try to get him to eat and take care of him.
Alex Lange: So, I do that, and I just feel like something’s off. I wish I could tell you… I wish I could tell you really what it was, but I knew something internally was off. I started to research.
Alex Lange: dehydration in kids in the other room. I was on ChatGPT, I was looking up to see how I could help if I needed to, and I ended up falling asleep, and at around 4 AM, my wife just
Alex Lange: busts into the room, and she starts freaking out, and my wife is very calm. If you were to see our relationship, she’s the very calm, level-headed, in the sense of, like, when the kids get hurt, me, I’m like, oh, what’s going on? Let me try to fix, fix, fix, fix.
Alex Lange: She comes in, she’s like, Alex, wake up, wake up. Liam, he’s seizing, he’s seizing, he’s fainting, we need to take him to the ER, I think he’s dehydrated. And so I, without hesitation, because I had already thought about it, I got into the car, we all packed into the car, I woke up our nanny, and said, hey, I have to take my kids, or I have to take Liam, can you please stay and watch the kids? We were in Cyprus, we had a traveling nanny with us.
Alex Lange: get in the car, I don’t even know where the hospital is, I find a police officer on the side of the street, I pull in, they’re asleep, so I bang on their window. I’m like, hey, where’s the nearest emergency room? My son needs to be in the ER right now, like.
Alex Lange: where do we need to go? And they told me 20 minutes that way. So they gave me the name, I typed it in, and it took us about 15 minutes. I was speeding, I was frantic. We get to the ER, and they’re not… they don’t really speak English, they’re speaking Greek.
Alex Lange: There is some broken English that they’re speaking, but long story short, they start doing tests, and I’m telling them, my wife and I are telling them, hey, he hasn’t eaten in 14 hours, he’s probably dehydrated.
Alex Lange: Can you put an IV in? So they’re starting to try to put IVs in, and the woman says, what’s going on with his skin? His skin is a different color. And we’re like, well, when he’s cold, his skin turns a little bluish.
Alex Lange: And and they were like, but feel him, he’s not cold.
Alex Lange: And so we felt him, and he was… he was warm. And that was… that was like, oh, wow, this is something different. Now they started to worry about that, so they took him back to do scans.
Alex Lange: And they said, they came back, and everybody’s frantic at this point. Like, the nurses, the doctors, everybody’s frantic. And they’re like, he’s critical, we have to get him to a hospital, we don’t have the capabilities to take care of him here.
Alex Lange: So I’m… I’m watching them because they start doing an EKG. I… myself, having some medical conditions, I… I was very familiar with the EKG, so I looked, and the EKG had all this crazy terminology that I’ve never seen before on an EKG, and I was like, oh, shh…
Alex Lange: snap, something’s wrong. And…
Alex Lange: they say, hey, he has an enlarged heart, we have to take him to a different hospital. So I have to go run back, I call this… the Airbnb.
Alex Lange: and the people, and said, hey, I couldn’t clean it the way that I wanted to. It’s not dirty, we didn’t leave the place messy, but I just want to let you know my son’s going to the critical care in this town 2 hours away.
Alex Lange: I can’t… I gotta go now. So, I cancel the Airbnb in Cyprus, I cancel our flights, we’re… I pack up all my kids in a car with all the suitcases, our nanny, and I’m…
Alex Lange: Driving behind, behind my wife and my son.
Alex Lange: And my wife, she’s texting me, my son’s… my kids in the car are screaming because I had told them, hey, something’s going on with Liam, it’s very serious, and knowing them, I had… I wanted to make sure that I re… like, I made sure that they were okay with the fact, like, hey, you didn’t hurt your brother, you saved his life.
Alex Lange: You know, they found, they caught something in these scans, you didn’t hurt your brother, you saved his life, because they were worried, like, oh, we heard him, what’s next?
Alex Lange: We get to the hospital, and the doctors tell my wife, go fill out paperwork.
Alex Lange: And, we’ll take… we have to take Liam.
Alex Lange: my wife goes and fills out paperwork, and Liam is… they sedate Liam without asking us anything like that. We come back, I arrive, Liam’s ventilator, he’s all hooked up, and they say that he has a…
Alex Lange: A serious heart condition that, he only was born… he was born with 3 chambers in his heart, but 2 were only functioning.
Alex Lange: He had two left atriums, so he didn’t have a main aorta that was going to his lungs. So his, his, basically, internally, his body had made a way to function, but his heart, if he wanted to live, it was going to be a long process.
Alex Lange: But it was gonna take, like, 3 years after surgeries, after surgeries after surgeries, and the woman, after doing more tests, they were like, there’s nothing that we can do.
Alex Lange: But we’re gonna trans… we’re gonna transport them to Israel, so they… they had gotten an air medevac.
Alex Lange: And they said, we’re gonna transform, and we’re gonna try to do an open-heart surgery. We’re gonna try to put a stent in his heart to his lungs to see if we can kickstart the growth in his lungs. But that doesn’t promise anything. That’s gonna have to be a year long, where we see if it holds, and then we can replace his heart. He’s gonna need a whole new heart.
Alex Lange: And, 18… er, excuse me, 16 hours after he was sedated, he, he passed away. We were walking…
Alex Lange: We were driving in.
Alex Lange: I was dropping my wife off, because she was going to be on the airplane. The medevac was here, they were coming to get him, he was about to leave, and my wife calls me as she gets into the room, and she says, Alex Liam’s in cardiac arrest. I parked my car in the middle of the street.
Alex Lange: I don’t care what’s around, and I sprint as hard as I can.
Alex Lange: And I walk into… a man doing CPR,
Alex Lange: my wife, who I see, she’s so strong, she’s never really been someone to lose it, She’s…
Alex Lange: Screaming and crying on the floor.
Alex Lange: And I’m just… I’m trying to process it all, you know, and…
Alex Lange: after 10 and a half minutes, I know I went long here, but after 10 and a half minutes, the cardiologist pulls me aside, and she says, look, she takes a Doppler monitor from an ultrasound, and she says his heart’s not beating.
Alex Lange: It’s…
Alex Lange: protocol, we have to… the parents have to call it. They have to tell them to stop. Do you want us to stop?
Alex Lange: And I remember… I remember looking at my wife, Looking at the man.
Alex Lange: And… it’s like, what you see in a movie, you’re like, this is never gonna happen to me.
Alex Lange: Yeah. And, I said yes, and that, you know, we’re here…
Alex Lange: And without, you know, one less kid. 18 months old.
Jessica Dueñas: Oh my gosh.
Jessica Dueñas: Alex… Ugh, that is so heavy, and I’m…
Jessica Dueñas: I am so sorry that that is what your family went through.
Jessica Dueñas: And I remember, you know, hearing the short inversion when you did this for TEDx, and I looked over at the audience, and…
Jessica Dueñas: We were all just… Breaking for you.
Jessica Dueñas: that… I can’t imagine it, and… the…
Jessica Dueñas: The fact that you have since… Turned around, and…
Jessica Dueñas: found purpose in this, and meaning in this, is…
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, it brings awe to me, honestly. I was looking at some of, like, your work online that you shared, and one of the things that really struck me
Jessica Dueñas: is you talk about this idea of pain having two sides, right? And there’s either one that can keep you stuck.
Jessica Dueñas: Or one that guides you to a deeper version of yourself. And…
Jessica Dueñas: I… if anybody went through what you went through and stayed stuck, I wouldn’t blame them, and I wouldn’t fault them, because I feel like, wow, what an incredibly human response, right, to… to be…
Jessica Dueñas: Just broken by this and stay… stay down and stay broken.
Jessica Dueñas: So, how did you move into the…
Jessica Dueñas: the deeper version of yourself. How did that happen after such a devastating moment?
Alex Lange: I first want to say every healing journey is different for anybody that’s listening. My… how I’m able to move through this challenging time in my life.
Alex Lange: doesn’t mean that you… that you need to move at the pace that I am, right? You have to move at a pace that works for you, what fits, but I think the framework that I’ll introduce at the end, it’s important to go through those frameworks to then be able to do it on your own time, right? There’s choice. I… I think I…
Alex Lange: I sat with my wife a couple days after, and I said, you know, our daughter… I have a… my oldest daughter, she’s 7 now, but when she was 2 and a half.
Alex Lange: She was diagnosed with a brain tumor. She was having over 10 seizures a day. She had a lot of autistic tendencies, and…
Alex Lange: My life in 2021 was very challenging. I mentioned at the very beginning that I had coped and ran from every challenging moment in my life.
Alex Lange: And I ran through alcohol. I ran through working, overworking. I ran through porn. I watched a lot of porn for a long time. And I’m sitting here in a humble place of telling you, because something that you said, Jessica, that I want a lot of people to realize is that
Alex Lange: Part of our healing journey Is sharing our story.
Alex Lange: And in sharing our stories, it doesn’t just help other people, it helps us through that process. And so in 2021, when my daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor.
Alex Lange: you know, I kept asking, why me? I was stuck in this victim mindset of, like, why did I have to get
Alex Lange: you know, why did someone have to do this to me? And then a few months later.
Alex Lange: I have… I was diagnosed with 5 brain tumors.
Alex Lange: And then I’m sitting here, like, why? Like, why am I getting hit with this?
Alex Lange: And then my wife, you know, because I had coped and ran from everything in my life.
Alex Lange: my relationship wasn’t good. You know, externally.
Alex Lange: In the Navy, I was a hard charger, what they call a hard charger. I made Chief Petty Officer, which is a high senior enlisted rank, in 7 years. I was very successful at my job, but my identity outside of the uniform, I had no clue.
Alex Lange: I’d get home, and I’d scroll, I’d watch porn, I’d drink, I would busy myself staying away from
Alex Lange: what was really going on. So my wife asked for a divorce. She had an abortion that we had, it was a 12-week-old baby boy. When she passed the baby. You could see that it was a boy. And so it was like, I went through a lot of these things.
Alex Lange: And that was my wake-up point, is I had to ask myself, at what point do I stop running?
Alex Lange: And I just stay with it.
Alex Lange: I don’t need to do anything, I don’t need to distract myself, I just need to stay with it.
Alex Lange: And so I started to just…
Alex Lange: sit in the pain. I stopped drinking because of the medical… the brain tumors. I realized that my relationship with my wife was broken because of my porn usage, like, the intimacy is affected, like, how you relate in the world to people is affected.
Alex Lange: I realized that I had a lot of childhood trauma, and still do. Like, I want to make sure people understand that a healing journey is a lifelong journey, especially anybody that has been an addict knows that it is a lifelong
Alex Lange: journey. Every day is a new day. And so, for me, I had to… I had to wake up and accept these things.
Alex Lange: So I sat with it.
Alex Lange: And… within sitting with it, I realized that there was some wisdom in the emotions. New thoughts were coming up.
Alex Lange: And with those thoughts, emotions were coming up. I started to really feel and lean into these emotions.
Alex Lange: And then I surrounded myself with men that were doing the work.
Alex Lange: And that’s very important within the healing journey, and I’m sure you could speak on this too, is when you surround yourself with people, like-minded people that are taking steps in that process, it helps so much.
Alex Lange: And so I started to see that other men were going through the same things that I was going through. And where I was isolating myself and thinking that I was the only one that was having the problem, there were other people that were going through the same thing, and hearing their stories, and hearing their perspectives.
Alex Lange: I was going back to my wife and being a totally different person because I could see how people were showing up in the world and what they were struggling with that were just like me.
Alex Lange: And so through that process, when Liam came, I had already built this foundation. I didn’t have a name for it. I didn’t have a name for this framework. I just knew that, hey, Liam died.
Alex Lange: And I needed to be… I needed to allow this to stay with me.
Alex Lange: I can’t numb it through scrolling, or working, or anything that I’ve done in the past.
Alex Lange: I gotta stay with it.
Alex Lange: And I cultivated that environment for my kids as well. I think that’s what helped me, because we were traveling, and so it was just our family.
Alex Lange: I didn’t have any external distractions, I didn’t have going to be a football coach, or a basketball coach, or the Navy, or things that were pulling me away, because I had committed that year, you know, that time frame to being fully leaned in, full-time dad, full-time partner, you know.
Alex Lange: For me, when I got kicked out of the military, I got a pension.
Alex Lange: for all the medical things that I was going through. And so that was what was our… that’s our passive income. So we just decided to reallocate our budget. Instead of having a mortgage, and a car payment, and all these other things, we decided, hey, you know what, let’s live the… let’s… let’s live. Let’s fully…
Alex Lange: See different cultures, let’s be present with each other, let’s silence… silence the external noise.
Alex Lange: And let’s… let’s really connect with each other.
Alex Lange: And so when Liam passed away, that was… being in that space and having that availability to just be with myself.
Alex Lange: And then when the emotions came up, and then asking the questions, instead of being in a victim mindset, and getting curious of what this is here to teach me… and I know that’s a challenging process when you’ve lost a child, or a partner, or, you know, you’re struggling with alcohol, or drugs, or whatever the battle is, or whatever the challenge is, I know it’s challenging.
Alex Lange: But if you can just get curious on, okay, what is this here to teach me?
Alex Lange: Why is it in my life?
Alex Lange: And that’s where I started to see a lot of change.
Jessica Dueñas: Ugh, that’s incredibly powerful, and, you know, I’m…
Jessica Dueñas: I’m so grateful that you were able to kind of get into community before all of this happened, because one of the things I’ve noticed, again, just from kind of, like, looking at all of your stuff and slightly stalking, especially in preparation to talk today, right? What I did notice is that you share very openly, and you share very vulnerably, and
Jessica Dueñas: 100%. I mean, I see it in being in recovery from alcohol, and in the sobriety community that I’m a part of, the Luckiest Club, right, that…
Jessica Dueñas: When people open up, when they share vulnerably, they break down that narrative in our heads that we’re the only one. And… because the truth is, we… we’re never the only one. And what I’ve seen in response to a lot of what you’ve shared about your story, specifically about Liam, are other people who have
Jessica Dueñas: experienced something similar, saying a version of, like, Me Too. What I’ve also seen, I have seen some people who push back, and they’re like, why are you doing this? And I’m curious, what is your… your mindset around the people who push back, and they’re like, you shouldn’t be doing this, you shouldn’t be posting this, etc?
Alex Lange: Well, I first want to say that I’ve never been the type of person that attacks the other side, like, in anything. I’m a big firm believer of education and then choice. So, you know, if we all have the same information and you make a different choice than me, then cool. Like, I respect it.
Alex Lange: It’s been… that’s been an interesting… I’m glad you brought this up, because this is something I’ve sat with the last few days, because I’ve received more backlash of, like, why are you being… like, why are you showing this? Your son just died, why are you taking a video or a picture? And at one point, I believed the same thing that they did.
Alex Lange: I’m like, this is a vulnerable moment that needs to be shared… that needs to be, like, quiet. Why are we sharing this? And…
Alex Lange: I feel like we’ve, as a society, gotten conditioned that there’s only perfection. Like, life is only, you know, if you work hard enough, if you have the big things, you know, you’re successful, we talk about success, that’s priority. And then on social media, we push the success picture.
Alex Lange: No one shares the challenges. So then, when we share the challenges, it becomes taboo. You know, like, it’s… it’s…
Alex Lange: It’s uncomfortable for some people. Death is uncomfortable for people. And
Alex Lange: I think that’s where I’m leaning into a lot, is to really say, you know what?
Alex Lange: This is my opportunity to help people realize that it’s a normal process of life.
Alex Lange: And everybody’s gonna die.
Alex Lange: We’re not able to escape that. Unless they find some miracle for us to live eternally, right? Everybody’s gonna die, and so I… in my own process, as I’ve been vulnerable and shared.
Alex Lange: I’ve heard so many beautiful stories, and that’s what I’m leaning into.
Alex Lange: You know, the positive of listening to a woman who had a 6-month-old child that passed away of the same condition.
Alex Lange: And how she got to spend so much time with him, and they knew because they got an ultrasound at 20 weeks. You know, just to back a little bit, the reason why we didn’t know Liam had a heart condition was because my wife gave birth at home and had no ultrasounds at all.
Alex Lange: And so, the doctor, when Liam passed away, she said that he was a medical miracle. He shouldn’t have lived past a few days. And so I lean into that as well, you know, where people have hit me on that, like, you guys are careless, you didn’t get your kid checked out, like, I hear it. I respect your opinion, but I also know
Alex Lange: that this happened for a reason, and he lived long, that he lived a longer life because of what we… like, of how we brought him into the world, and we got to have all these beautiful memories. So I… I tell them, these people thank you, right? Like, I don’t want anybody that comes to my page, and I’ve said this before.
Alex Lange: Everybody has an opinion. Now, for me, my opportunity is when someone hits me in the chest with something that I don’t like, how can I just acknowledge it.
Alex Lange: Thank you for your opinion, and you can… you can continue to carry on just like I’m gonna carry on.
Alex Lange: Because the… the medicine, the story, which is the medicine, It’s so much more powerful
Alex Lange: than the onesies or the twosies, the people that come hit me and say, hey.
Alex Lange: Why did you record your son?
Alex Lange: And that’s all I have, though. You know, like, those are the only… those are the last memories, and yes, he’s dead, but being able to see him…
Alex Lange: Still… I wish I could explain it to you, but it’s just… those are memories now.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and you know, the thing I’m hearing
Jessica Dueñas: some of the arguments, and I remember seeing some of that posted in, like, response to some of your content, you know, we can’t change the outcomes of things in life, right? Like, if you would have
Jessica Dueñas: done… if you all would have known earlier on, you know, the timing was his timing. The other thing that I think about, too, quality of life, you know, it looks like Liam had a really beautiful life, and, like, you all did so many awesome things, and, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: I wonder what his life would have looked like if you had known that, you know, there was this heart defect going on, right? Like, would he have just been in the hospital his entire existence until his passing, and then what kind of life would that have been? You know, so it’s like, I see what those folks are saying, but at the end of the day, like, this was his lived experience, and it sounds like he did live a beautiful life with his siblings and you all until his time came, and so.
Alex Lange: So, it’s so difficult, right? And I think, like.
Jessica Dueñas: there’s so many different things that people are bringing with them when they’re making those charged comments, right? Like, their own stories, their own experiences that make them feel like their way is right. And so, I… I love that you just kind of use that as an invitation to just practice, like, alright, you can have your thought, you can carry on, and I’m gonna carry on.
Alex Lange: Can I say one thing, too.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Alex Lange: You made me think about, most people suffer in any situation, any challenge, most people suffer because they’re either thinking about the future, or they’re thinking about the past.
Alex Lange: And in this healing journey for me, I’ve really found solace in staying in the present moment as much as possible. Like, when I acknowledge, when I start to see myself thinking about the future, or I start to think about, what if we did this? What if we did that?
Alex Lange: And I feel the emotions, I take it… I stop and I take a deep breath.
Alex Lange: And I’m like, okay.
Alex Lange: Where am I at right now?
Alex Lange: Am I safe? Am I okay? Like, I start to ask myself these questions, because…
Alex Lange: That’s how… it’s so interesting how the brain works, because it’s going to take us to this what-if scenario, or this, and especially in the future, if we’re thinking about something in the future, but it hasn’t even happened, why are we anxious about it? Why are we freaking out about it? Now we have to go through that process twice.
Alex Lange: But if we can just stay in the moment and control the controllables for us.
Alex Lange: We can look at how we can control ourselves and how we show up in the world.
Alex Lange: When that moment comes, then we… then we navigate through it.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and you know, when you talk about controlling the controllables, like, the only thing we’re in control of is ourselves.
Alex Lange: Yeah.
Jessica Dueñas: how do we choose to respond to things? Like, even that first emotion we’re not in control of, right? It’s really, like, we’re just in control of the decisions and, you know, what thoughts we choose to continue to, like, cycle through our minds versus not. I’m curious, I know that you do coach people, and…
Jessica Dueñas: how have you helped others, aside from sharing your story, which I think is incredibly important, and it breaks down shame, and it helps to build community.
Jessica Dueñas: how else do you support others who are grieving when they… when they share, like, hey, me too, like, what help, what… what do I do with this pain?
Alex Lange: So I created this framework. I went back and I looked at my own life as I progressed through 2021, and then the coaching clients that I had, like I said, I didn’t have a name for this process, but then as I was writing the TEDx.
Alex Lange: you know, Dr. R kept telling me, hey, I need you to create, like, some type of framework that people can take away, something tangible.
Alex Lange: So then, I thought about my son, and I’m like, hey, what a good way to honor him with the Liam process. And this process, what I do with… and I coach mostly men, so I’m not saying that I don’t take women, I’m in a different phase of my life, I was hardcore men for a long time, but…
Alex Lange: The big thing is listening. So just being there, asking them to sit with what’s going on.
Alex Lange: Not scrolling, not coping with whatever their coping mechanism is, listening to what’s going on.
Alex Lange: And then, having them write it down, I either have them write it down, so journaling, voice memos, some form of getting it out, because the thoughts that are in our head, we close the loop when we get them on a piece of paper. If we just… we… they’re there, and we just keep pushing them, they’re gonna recycle.
Alex Lange: And so with my clients, I have them do a lot of either writing, which I know is something that I saw on your page. You do a form of writing with regards to coaching. And then, I’m a big speaker, I love speaking, I love connecting to people, so I really relate with people on the voice, so I have them do a lot of voice connection, if that… voice processing, if that relates to them.
Alex Lange: And then the action piece is action to self.
Alex Lange: So…
Alex Lange: you acknowledge, or I skipped the I, the integration. So the feelings, listening to the feelings, listening to what’s coming up, and then integrating it into your life.
Alex Lange: So, not acting like it’s never happened to you, like you don’t have something going on, acknowledging it, giving it a place, giving it a name, face, whatever you need to do.
Alex Lange: Integrate it.
Alex Lange: And then let’s act with it. And that action, once again, can be as simple as a walk, it could be a phone call, it could be a journal entry, a voice memo.
Alex Lange: starting to get movement from the body, because somatically, movement is medicine for the mind. So when we start to move around, when we start to take action within what we’re going through.
Alex Lange: Other things start to flow. Ideas, thoughts.
Alex Lange: And then part of this framework that I’ve asked people to do is service to others.
Alex Lange: Now, it doesn’t mean, like, you have to go out and be so insert, like, being a servant to other people and lose focus of yourself, but the service to others is sharing your story and talking about it.
Alex Lange: Because this is the… this is the thing with regards to self-worth, is when these things happen to us, we don’t think that we’re worthy. We don’t feel like we belong in the room.
Alex Lange: And the mental part of this all, that’s more than half the battle.
Alex Lange: So I say, hey, let’s go share your story. I want you to share your story to a few people.
Alex Lange: Like, let… whatever… however… whatever platform, it doesn’t have to be Instagram or TEDx, or… but maybe it’s someone that you know that you just… that they don’t know what you’re going through. Share it.
Alex Lange: And a lot of times, the people come back and they’re like, man.
Alex Lange: I didn’t know this person was going through this, too.
Alex Lange: And especially working with men, that’s the constant theme that I get, is because we leave it… we keep it so internal, because we feel like we’re the only ones going through it. When they start to open up to other men.
Alex Lange: They… they realize that other men are going through the same thing, and then they…
Alex Lange: They stop believing that it’s… it’s not manly.
Alex Lange: It’s, it’s not manly to, to open up.
Alex Lange: You know, I think that we’ve been conditioned as men to… to keep it in, to suck it up, to… to push through it.
Alex Lange: But human beings are not meant to just always do, they’re meant to be as well.
Alex Lange: And so, we have to create a space for that.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and I mean, I think it’s so important that you bring that up, because that can be such a block for men’s mental health. Like, the idea that, you know, it’s manly to not express your emotions, and then, you know, you keep all of this bottled up, and I mean, eventually, it’s like a pressure cooker, right? Like, you’ve got to let these feelings out, you’ve got to find a way to process them, otherwise it’s gonna be like an explosion, and that
Jessica Dueñas: Helps no one. Literally, it helps no one.
Alex Lange: Absolutely.
Jessica Dueñas: So I’m so glad that you’re creating, and, you know, having these spaces, having these conversations for men to really get in touch with their feelings, because it needs to be, like, we need to change the narrative socially, that it’s okay for men to carry these emotions, and to be impacted, and to name it. Again, you know, they don’t have to be suffering in silence.
Jessica Dueñas: The other thing that you had mentioned earlier that I wanted to come back to that I think is really important is With regard to, like, looking at death as a transition point.
Jessica Dueñas: I… I wanted to talk about that a little bit, only because…
Jessica Dueñas: what I’ve noticed is a lot of people are incredibly uncomfortable with speaking about death, when the reality is, is that
Jessica Dueñas: you said it yourself, everyone is going to pass away. It’s guaranteed, as much as being born is a guarantee, so is the fact that one day we all transition off of this earth. And I’m curious,
Jessica Dueñas: How you perceive death, or, like, how you aim to break the stigma around that with the work that you do as well.
Alex Lange: Yeah, I…
Alex Lange: I feel, in my own journey, this is an I statement because it starts with me, anything that I say here, it’s something that I’ve done, but I do believe that it relates with a lot of people. I was scared of death for so long because I didn’t like the life that I was living.
Alex Lange: So many people are in a job that they hate.
Alex Lange: They’re chasing the dreams of other people, they’re building the dreams of other people, they’re doing things that they don’t like to do, but because they have to financially. And so I think that they’re… in my own experience, when I ask myself, why was I so scared, it’s because I’m not living a life that I’m really enjoying.
Alex Lange: So, I am hoping, as I share more, and, you know, I talk about
Alex Lange: inspiring families to live with purpose. You know, post Liam, it’s about inspiring families to live with purpose, inspiring people to do things that they want to do.
Alex Lange: And it doesn’t have to look like mine, right? It just requires you to sit, to say, okay, what is it that I really want in the world? What is it… what fills my cup?
Alex Lange: Because a lot of times, we lose focus of that. We’re doing things because we have to do them, or we’re told to do them.
Alex Lange: Maybe, maybe you’re listening to this, and, you know, you’ve been told that, hey, you need to go this career path.
Alex Lange: You know, I was in the military for 13 and a half years, and the majority of the reason why I was in the military was because
Alex Lange: I didn’t have a relationship with my dad.
Alex Lange: Until I joined the military. My dad was a retired… he was in the military for 20 years, and he retired. And I went to the military because I didn’t really have any other options that were gonna push me up into being a productive human, and he was like, listen, you have to… you either get… you get out of my house.
Alex Lange: Or you join the military. And I was like, well, I don’t wanna… I don’t know what I’m gonna do with regards to career-wise, I’ll join the military. And so I just sucked it up. I was just continually focusing on building this… this beautiful career within the military. And then I sat back in 2021, like I mentioned, and asked myself.
Alex Lange: What am I doing this for?
Alex Lange: Who am I doing this for? Like, I hated… I loved leading people. I love leading people.
Alex Lange: But my job and being in the military, I was just like, this is not who I want to be. So then I started to take these steps of, okay, what fills my cup?
Alex Lange: What did I like about the military? How can I incorporate that into my life?
Alex Lange: So if you’re listening to this, I would ask you to just have a direction, understand where you want to go as a person.
Alex Lange: Are you in a career that really fills you up? Are you doing a job that really is giving and not just taking?
Alex Lange: If something is just taking from you, how is it serving you?
Alex Lange: And that’s… that’s why, for me, I was afraid of death, was because I’m like, man, I’m not really living a life.
Alex Lange: that I’m… like, if I was to die today, I’d have a lot of… a lot left on the table.
Alex Lange: regret. Resentment towards myself. Like, there would be a lot left on the table. And so now…
Alex Lange: Being able to…
Alex Lange: really redefined success, which I’ve changed that whole narrative in my mind. It’s not the cars, it’s not the six-figure paying job, because I had it all, and I was still struggling internally. For me, success is now about my inner self, like, having self-awareness.
Alex Lange: And then, now that helps me show up in the world differently. So, any challenge that, in my life that happens, I want to make sure I say this, because I’ve been thinking about it as you’ve been speaking.
Alex Lange: For death, when there’s death, there’s rebirth.
Jessica Dueñas: So anything that is no longer serving us that, like, falls off, it, you know, I use the word, maybe it’s a little harsh, but it dies, right?
Alex Lange: There’s a part of you that’s re… like, that’s gonna be rebirthed.
Alex Lange: You know, when forest fires… when there’s forest fires that happen, and they burn all down, the soil is actually more rich with nutrients for new trees to… to birth. So, like, that’s where I’m… where I lean into with death, is like, okay, how can I make the time that I have on Earth
Alex Lange: You know, the dash between the dates that are on the headstone, right? How can I make that dash more meaningful to me, not to others?
Jessica Dueñas: And that’s incredibly powerful, too, because if you’re kind of going off of what you’re saying, if you’re living a life that feels satisfying to you, because you’re defining what that satisfaction, what that success is.
Jessica Dueñas: then when your time comes, there’s kind of, like, that piece of, okay, like, well, I lived a good life, and so…
Jessica Dueñas: now I’m transitioning, as opposed to, like you said, that idea of, like, the stuff on the table, like, all this regret. And, you know, I hear it so much when people talk about, like, interviewing people, like, on their deathbeds, and, you know, like, the list of things that they regret, and I do hope that I’m
Jessica Dueñas: not with a lengthy list by the time that comes for me, whenever that is meant to be. I really hope and pray that I don’t have that experience either.
Jessica Dueñas: So, as we start to kind of, wrap up here, I want to think a little bit about the listener who might be… feel stuck, right, which happens to a lot of us.
Jessica Dueñas: What do you want them to kind of take from your story, or Liam’s life, or even if they get to listen to your TEDx talk? Like, what do you hope the stuck person does next?
Alex Lange: I think it’s important that…
Alex Lange: We take a moment, if you’re really… if you’re struggling in life.
Alex Lange: Possibly, if we could reframe, what if your biggest
Alex Lange: Perceived failures is actually your greatest success.
Alex Lange: So, really, when we are able to sit with ourselves, and just get curious on the emotions, the thoughts that come up, I want you to just give yourself that space.
Alex Lange: It can be… it can be in silence without any type of distraction.
Alex Lange: And this is… this may not be a one-time process. It may be a few weeks, a month’s process.
Alex Lange: But give yourself a space to know a direction that you want to go in.
Alex Lange: I talked about at the very beginning of the podcast, of educating yourself, and then having a choice.
Alex Lange: Most people follow blindly.
Alex Lange: From what the traditional narrative has been.
Alex Lange: They don’t even look into what things, like, the things that are happening in the world, and making a choice for themselves, they just follow blindly. So for yourself, I want you to really…
Alex Lange: And I steal this from a friend that told me after Liam passed, he said, love in all moments.
Alex Lange: Liam, love in all moments. He said, your healing journey, your addiction journey, your… whatever journey you’re going through.
Alex Lange: It’s about being able to love yourself. That’s how you’re going to get through the challenging times.
Alex Lange: And if you’re having a hard time loving yourself, I think it’s very important to surround yourself with people that are in this journey that you are on.
Alex Lange: That are… that are maybe a step ahead of you, or two steps, so on and so forth.
Alex Lange: And then as you’re on that journey, and you’re starting to see you’re able to love yourself more, you’re pouring back into your cup, part of this healing journey is then to look behind you and see the people that are maybe in step 0 or Step 1, and pulling them with you, guiding them.
Alex Lange: And so that’s what I want anybody that’s listening to this, is to give yourself a space to first listen.
Alex Lange: Listen to what’s coming up. Acknowledge it.
Alex Lange: Integrated into your life.
Alex Lange: Feel the feelings.
Alex Lange: Like, if you need to cry, cry.
Alex Lange: If you need to scream, scream. Give it a place, give it a name.
Alex Lange: And then take this action. Love yourself. Fill your cup.
Alex Lange: Identify a list of things that make you feel better, external of the coping mechanism. So, like, I get it, like, for me, you know, for a long time, I thought, okay, alcohol helped me feel better, porn, working, like, that’s what gave me value. But as you sit with yourself, you’re gonna realize, okay, those just took from me.
Alex Lange: What really gives me life? What makes me feel good?
Alex Lange: And when you start to do that for yourself, once again, that multiply.
Alex Lange: Get service to others by sharing your story. Everyone here, when they share their story, gives permission for others to do the same.
Alex Lange: And that’s how we heal the unconscious collective, so to speak.
Alex Lange: Our healing journey is we’re connected, we’re so interconnected as people. And when we suppress things, they come out sideways, through addiction, through drugs, through whatever it may be.
Alex Lange: And that’s why it’s important to have this expression, this creative expression.
Alex Lange: Hopefully that answers your question.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, no, it totally does, and when you talk about, like, that, what if your greatest perceived failure is, like, actually, like, your greatest success, or… you said something along those lines.
Jessica Dueñas: You know, it made me think immediately about my relationship with alcohol, and how there was a time when
Jessica Dueñas: I was totally in that, woe is me, why do I have to be the one that’s addicted to this stuff, and now I have to figure out how to get sober when all these people in the world just get to enjoy their casual drink, like, with dinner, I can’t do that. There was so much resentment that I had about the fact that I’m one of the lucky 10% who struggles with, you know, some sort of substance use disorder.
Jessica Dueñas: And at the same time, while I didn’t ask for it, I look around at the life that I have today, and nothing that I have today would have
Jessica Dueñas: been here, like my daughter, my relationship, you know, sort of like this rebirth that I’ve had to experience myself. None of this would be here if I didn’t have the struggle in the first place. Again, you know, resiliency, that’s a tough one because we become resilient when we go through really hard things.
Jessica Dueñas: But I’m really glad that I am a resilient person at this point, and I… I am so grateful that there isn’t anything in this world
Jessica Dueñas: that I don’t believe I can’t face, if that makes sense, you know? And the confidence that I have, and a lot of that is because
Jessica Dueñas: I overcame the struggles that I had with alcohol and continue on a daily basis. I make that choice every day to stay sober, to work to protect that sobriety. I… it is my greatest success. Everything that I have today is because of my sobriety, even though…
Jessica Dueñas: you know, would I have asked for this, you know, lot in life? Sure, no, of course not. Like, nobody wants to go through those struggles, but I did it, and here I am. So, I definitely think that it’s hard, because in those moments, when we’re in the thick of it, we don’t see the way out, but if we can just, like you said, be in community and see that there’s other people who were in our shoes, and they got through it, and trust that if other humans can do it.
Jessica Dueñas: I can too. That can really, really take us a long way. So, thank you for that point. So, Alex, before we wrap up, how can people connect with you? How can people find you, follow your work, or learn more about what you do?
Alex Lange: Absolutely. So, you can find me right now, I do a lot of more of sharing my writings, and just being vulnerable on Instagram, at alexlang22. I am not official in the sense of having a website, I do have a substack, but I’m very infant in the speaking journey. That’s been a dream of mine.
Alex Lange: And when Liam passed away, I said, hey, you know what? The reason why I did a TEDx was because Liam passed away. And I’ve been holding my own dreams off.
Alex Lange: And I was like, hey, it’s time to share. So, at alexlang22, Instagram, and then you can email me, a lot of my… I do a lot of coaching at, it’s alexlangcoaching at gmail.com, and
Alex Lange: things are evolving. You know, the TEDx, and I’m sure you could speak the same, a lot of opportunities have opened up for me since. You know, a lot of people have reached out asking me to share, and so I do… if you’re listening to this and you have a podcast.
Alex Lange: please reach out. I’d love to share my story. I’d love to have you share your story, because I think at the end of the day, as humans, we thrive on connection. Connection to self, and connection to others. And if you’re going through something that’s challenging.
Alex Lange: there’s a lot more people that are gonna have… your story is medicine to them than the people that think… that are gonna shame you, and be on you, and give you a hard time. And I… and I hid my mom… you know, for a long time, I hid my mom’s addiction, my dad’s alcoholism, because I thought it was something so bad.
Alex Lange: But the reality is, we’re all human, and we’re all going through something. We connect when we come together, and we’re just honest, vulnerable, and we’re there for each other.
Jessica Dueñas: Absolutely. Well, Alex, again, just thank you for sharing Liam’s story, thank you for opening up about how grief has shaped your journey and has you… how you navigated everything.
Jessica Dueñas: To anyone listening, just that reminder that if today’s conversation brought up anything heavy for you, please remember that you don’t have to go through grief alone. I mean, Alex shared his contact information, but also remember that there’s always a trusted friend in your circle, a support group, or even a counselor to help you talk through these things. We don’t have to go through this human experience alone, so…
Jessica Dueñas: Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Alex, for joining. Until next time.
Alex Lange: Thank you so much.
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In this episode:
In this episode, I sit down with Abigail Teixeira for a powerful conversation on sobriety, generational healing, and parenting with intention. Abigail opens up about the courage it took to share the parts of her story that had been “silenced for too long” and what reclamation and decolonization look like in her daily life. In our conversation, we address breaking cycles of trauma and addiction, how recovery connects to healing our lineage, and the ways imperfection and vulnerability shape how we show up as mothers. This conversation is an honest reminder that sobriety is about more than not drinking, it’s about reclaiming your voice, breaking cycles, and living in alignment.
Resources:
About Abigail Teixeira:
Abigail Teixeira is a trauma recovery coach, international speaker, and 3x best-selling author devoted to helping cycle-breaking women heal their trauma and rise into leadership. A former nurse turned decolonized business mentor, Abigail blends over 17 years of clinical experience with deep lived experience, ancestral wisdom, human design, nervous system healing, and woman-centered coaching.
Abby empowers mothers and creatives to rewrite their stories, reclaim their voice, and lead with purpose. Her mission is to end cycles of pain by building legacies rooted in love, sovereignty, and truth.
With four children and a thriving coaching business, Abigail shows that sacred boundaries, bold vision, and healing are the foundation of true success. She believes that our deepest pain often holds the key to our greatest power—and that healing ourselves is how we heal the world.
Book a Complimentary Leadership call with Abigail
Jessica’s Links:
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back. Well, I am super excited to be in conversation today with Abby Teixera. Abby is someone who I’ve been following maybe for years, I don’t even know how long it’s been, but I saw her first in conversation with another good friend of mine named Priscilla, and Abby really just captured my attention. She is a mother of four, I believe.
Jessica Dueñas: A coach, I know an author, an entrepreneur.
Jessica Dueñas: kind of all the things, but really, some of the things that really struck me about you, Abby, and why I’m so glad that you’re here, is, just kind of seeing how you talk about parenting. I know you are in recovery. I know that from your post, that you have survived some trauma in Europe history and addiction as well, and, that you also have a community for mothers, right? I think the Healing Mama Collective.
Jessica Dueñas: So really, I just wanted to bring you on to kind of expose folks to the good work that you’re doing, in case anybody is looking for support in their own healing journey, in their motherhood journey. Again, there’s so much that you do that always inspires me, so I would just love to learn more from you. But before I just kind of introduce you, do you want to tell people who you are, and formally what you do?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Jessica, for having me. I am so excited to chat with you. I’ve also been following you as well at the… I think the same time that you started following me, I started following you too, and it was through our mutual friend, Priscilla, who I love and admire her so much.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, you’re also a fellow Latina, which I love, always supporting. I am, like you said, all the things… I am a mama for, the age ranges is from 7 is my oldest, 1 is my youngest, and 4 and 5 are my middle 2, so very intense, full life, that’s for sure. I’m also a coach, I’m a trauma recovery coach, a feminine business mentor.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I’m a speaker, an author, my fourth book is actually about to launch next week, and it’s actually about parenting. It’s called Parent… The Art of Parenting. It wasn’t in the manual, and it’s a co-authored book, and so,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): my chapter specifically on my journey through postpartum depression, and really breaking the stigma and the silence around, what that journey can look like. Interesting with that, a little off the cuff here, I actually reached out to my community on Instagram, when I got this opportunity to write this chapter, and I did a poll in my stories asking, you know, different topics that people wanted to
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): To hear from me, like, write about.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, that’s the one that won by a landslide, postpartum… my journey through postpartum depression, which was interesting, because I’ve never written about it fully, and so it was really good to be able to go back there, and then now it’s being launched, and, you know, that’ll come out into the world.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But yeah, like you said, I am in recovery, 11 years coming up here in October, recovering from addiction to alcohol. I’m also a childhood trauma survivor, complex trauma survivor, and advocate now.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, yeah, those are the things that are my passions, these are the things that I live for, I speak for, I write, and, you know, these kind of opportunities to have conversations like this just fill me up so much, because I know
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): What it was like for me in… whether it was the early days of my recovery journey, or in my parenting journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): just looking for others, you know, looking for others who sounded like me, who look like me, who had similar stories, because one of the biggest things that I find.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that many women struggle with is that feeling of isolation and loneliness, right? That, like, we’re the only ones, nobody gets it, all of that kind of stuff, right? And so I think we just need more voices speaking out about these real-life experiences, especially breaking cycles, right? When we come from families that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, they did the best they could, but unfortunately it wasn’t good enough, you know, and it left many of us with trauma. And then we have to rewrite, you know, kind of that script, and learn as we go.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it can be very daunting. It can be very daunting, right? And so I think it’s really important to be able to share openly about these things so that others can see themselves, and they have hope. They know that, you know, healing is possible, and that we can do this.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that, Abby. I know there’s times that I’ve seen you post about the concept of reclamation, and I was curious if you could speak to that, because I was going to ask you what’s the importance of sharing your story, but you already hit on that, which is beautiful, right? And it is so important for us to feel seen, it is so important for us to realize that we are not alone in the struggles that we share. But as you talk about healing, I’ve heard you talk about
Jessica Dueñas: reclamation, I’ve heard you talk about decolonization of our minds, and I’m so curious if you can speak a little bit to that, and what that might look like for you in your daily life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Absolutely. So, like I mentioned, as a Latina woman, my parents are from El Salvador, I was born in Mexico, and, what I’ve learned in my healing and recovery journey is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): When we look on a spiritual level, a lot of the things that we carry, yes, you know, our environment, how we grew up, the things that we were exposed to have a really big part, and they play a big role in shaping us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But also, it goes a lot deeper than that. There’s actually intergenerational patterns, trauma, things that we are carrying that come from, you know, ancestors. You know, and when I think about, a couple of years ago, I started getting really curious about my roots.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And about, you know, who are the people in my lineage? Because, like I said, when I took on this role of the cycle breaker in my family.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I started to really look at the lineages I come from, my paternal and maternal. I started to see, as far as I could see, there was a lot of war, poverty, addiction, abuse, like, on both sides. Both of my grandfathers on both sides died of alcoholism at some point, like, as a result, you know, in addition to other things that were going on.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But they had problems with addiction, that kind of a thing. And I started getting really curious about, you know, this whole lineage thing, and, you know, they say that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): As a woman, when we step into healing and recovery, we’re actually healing 7 generations before us, and 7 generations after us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I found that statement so impactful, so that’s what really kind of sparked my curiosity to start digging into, you know, my history, my lineage, and so I ended up doing, like, an ancestry DNA testing, just to kind of see, you know, what was my mix, you know, in terms of, like, bloodlines, I guess.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And it was very interesting, because when, it came out, it actually turned out that I was, genetically 51% indigenous. It said Indigenous.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): At Maya, and and then the other was, like, mixed, 39% European, so, like, Spanish, Portuguese, and then a whole bunch of, like, all these little mixtures in there as well. And that was really eye-opening for me, because
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, it’s… it was the… when I started to really explore about lineage and… and decolonization, which is really what decolonization is, to me, it’s about unlearning the colonial ways of thinking and being that happen to many of us as Latinas.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? Like, we come from these long lineages that are very mixed, and where that mixture happened was, you know, at one point in time in the… for example, in the land that I come from, you know, Mexico, El Salvador.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): There was Indigenous people that lived there, and then, you know, the Europeans came, they colonized it in a very brutal, horrific way, basically almost erasing. There was 100 million Indigenous,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): people that were massacred, right? And so, it was, like, this whole thing that got me diving into all of that. And that… what happened during those times deeply affected our bloodlines, right? Our ancestors that survived those times.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they had no way of processing what they had just experienced, right? They were seeing the wiping out of their culture, their languages, their systems, all of that kind of stuff, right? And a lot of our practices, all of that kind of stuff was banned, was not allowed, and what happens when, you know, the ones that were most affected were the children having to witness all of this and not being able to process
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and grieve, and so the way it’s been put to me is that when you have no way of processing the grief, the pain, the loss of seeing your culture literally being almost banished.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it goes into your blood memory. And so that blood memory and the, like, into our bones, basically, that’s what… that’s genetically what gets passed down. And so that’s where intergenerational trauma starts to happen.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so that’s when you have the violence and, you know, the addictions and all of that kind of stuff to try to soothe.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, this feeling that many of us are born with, you know? You were gonna say something?
Jessica Dueñas: Oh, yeah, I was going to ask, well, this makes me think, and I’m curious if it’s the kind of like the same thing, when I think about epigenetics and how I’ve read about how epigenetics is the study of, you know, how the environment or things that happen literally impact your genes, right? And so I’m curious if that’s kind of, like, what this basically is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Exactly, exactly. So, just like…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, this deeply affected our genetic makeup of our ancestors. We have the power to reverse that, in a sense, and change it for our future, right? And so the things I’m healing from, my children won’t have to heal from, right? And it takes one person in the lineage to literally stop and say, you know, I’m no longer passing this stuff down. I’m no longer… it’s not okay for me to parent in this way, the way it was done for me.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That kind of a thing, right? And so… but it’s a deep, deep process, because these are things that are hardwired in us, and also, you know, we’ve… we… we develop these coping mechanisms, so for me,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, growing up, like I said, like, in a violent alcoholic home, you know, lots of abuse, lots of just really crazy things happening, I developed these, like, kind of, coping mechanisms to deal with it, because nobody was there to teach me, like, you know, this is what grief is, this is what loss is, you know, this is how you process anger or sadness, and, you know, I was just told, like, many of our, you know, kind of culturally, is just, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): kind of shut it down, sweep it under the rug, move on, you know, and you don’t have to think about it. But obviously, it manifests itself in different ways. Depression, anxiety, addiction, all of these kind of things.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so these are hardwired in us, not only in our environment, but also, like I said, ancestrally, right? And so that really took me down that route of really discovering about, you know, my lineage, and just how deep it runs.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And the ancestral ways of healing, of being, and living, and all of that kind of stuff, and unlearning the colonial mindset, which is, you know, hustle culture, which is disconnection from self.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): disconnection from each other, you know, this individualistic mindset that, you know, we all doing… we’re all doing things on our own, we don’t need anyone, all of that kind of stuff. Whereas, you know, our ancestors deeply, revered community. You know, we all healed in community, we grieved in community. Even as mothers, there was, you know, the village, the idea of the village coming around you, taking care of you when you had your children, all of that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That all kind of dissolved when colonialism came.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): into play, and it was all about survival, right? It was about survival, and really having that disconnection to not only ourselves, but also the Earth, you know, which is what decolonization really is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it’s about learning to reconnect with ourselves, and then with our Great Mother Earth, right? And then just going deep… deeper into all of those kind of things. That’s in a very nutshell kind of way, describing it, because it’s deep, it’s deep stuff, right? But, you know, that’s the work that I’ve been really diving into recently, and it’s life-changing. It really is life-changing, you know, and it’s things that I’m now passing down to my children.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): They’re seeing me doing certain things, and they have questions, they’re curious, and they want to come and do things with me, and I’m explaining to them and sharing with them. And that in itself is, you know, breaking cycles, because one of the cycles that I’m very proud to break from my lineage is the cycle of silence.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, where we don’t speak up about things. You know, we don’t talk about things, feelings, emotions, what are those? We don’t, you know, like, especially coming from children, and it’s like, you know, in my home, all emotions are welcome, we talk about them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, anger is okay. You know, I always tell my 5-year-old, my 5-year-old’s a very intense little boy, and when he gets upset, you know, like, he goes, like, 0 to 100 with anger, and, you know, I tell him, like, Papa, it’s okay for you to be, you know, angry, but it’s not okay for you to be mean, you know, if you’re angry.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And then I show him ways to be able to process that anger in a way that’s healthy, instead of suppressing it and shutting it down and saying, like, you know, smacking him, or like, you know, those kind of things that I grew up with.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and so, yeah, so it’s been like a whole journey and new discovery, and it’s really allowed for me to start coming home to myself and remembering. So that’s what reclamation is. I’m remembering who I’m actually… who I actually am beneath all of the trauma, beneath all of the conditioning and the programming and all of that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And who my ancestors were. You know, I’m able to be now the voice that they weren’t allowed to have, right? And especially as a woman. And so, so yeah, so like I said, in a nutshell, you know, that’s what…
Jessica Dueñas: Love it.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Decolonization and reclamation is.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I think that’s so incredibly powerful, and as you were giving the example about your son.
Jessica Dueñas: I thought about how I grew up as well, and some feelings were allowed, like, if I was happy, that wasn’t a problem. But yes, if I was frustrated, if I was upset, if I was getting emotional, there’s the classic, I’ll give you something to cry about, you know, you know, that kind of language, I feel like is very pervasive in a lot of…
Jessica Dueñas: cultures, and definitely, like, you know, my family, my father was from Cuba, my mother was from Costa Rica, and, you know, I definitely experienced a lot of that, too. I’m curious, how early on did you start having these conversations with your children? I mean, because all of your kiddos, they’re young, and so I’m curious, like, was it as soon as they were verbal that you were having these conversations about feelings? Like, when did you start to set that stage with them that
Jessica Dueñas: Whatever they’re feeling, it’s okay, and then giving them guidance for how to, like, manage the feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, that’s a great question. So, for me, it was really, the moment that I became a mom, I was already… I want to say I was about…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): about 4 years into my healing and recovery journey. So I felt like I had a pretty stable foundation, you know, going into becoming a mom. But nothing prepares you, truly prepares you, to becoming… to entering into, you know, motherhood. And,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, what happens is, as a cycle breaker, you enter into this process of what’s called reparenting. So what reparenting is, is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): We think about an inner child, which lives in all of us. We all have this spirit that lives inside of us, this inner little, you know, that when we close our eyes, you know, is very present there, right? Even though externally we are, like, whatever age, you know, and we’re at this kind of level, internally, we have this inner child that lives within all of us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that, there were certain things for me, personally, that, weren’t given to me, you know, as a child, weren’t, like I mentioned earlier, certain emotions, certain, things that I was not taught how to process.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so what I have to do in order to be able to do that to my kids, like, help them learn to process, I have to teach myself how to process my own emotions, and go into this kind of reparenting, while parenting kind of journey. And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): what happened was, you know, I had a journey of postpartum depression early on in my first two pregnancies at postpartum with both of them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I learned a lot through that. And, you know, the early stages, they don’t really talk, you know, they’re just kind of doing stuff, they’re babies, they’re, you know, it’s manageable. But then they started reaching the ages where it was very triggering for me, and I didn’t know why. There were certain things that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): They were, they were starting to do that would trigger me deeply, like, on a very reactive level.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I started getting super curious, and this is where the foundation that I had before becoming a mom was really vital for me, because I had already…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I kind of… I had these tools. I had tools and resources that I can lean into when I came across these situations where I was kind of stumped, and I was like, what is happening here? You know, and one of the biggest tools was leaning into curiosity.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): One of my coaches talks about becoming curious over defeated. And there were times when I was very defeated, because, you know, I would, so, for example.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, when kids start reaching the age of toddler, they start, you know, kind of, having a little bit of a voice, you know, they start kind of having a little power struggle, they start having these meltdowns and big, big emotions, big feelings, and that was super triggering for me, because
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I really felt lost how to deal with them in a way that wasn’t, scary, in a way that wasn’t abusive, because for me, as a child, what I discovered, the reason why I was becoming triggered when they were starting to express themselves in these ways, is because I… when I was witnessing them doing this.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): It brought me back to a time when I was their age, and it wasn’t safe for me to express myself in those ways.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, you know, it was… and so it was my inner child, you know, kind of in this, like, fight-or-flight kind of survival mode, that, you know, if I… if I screamed too much, or if I… if I, you know, had a meltdown, or all that kind of stuff, like, it would… I would get, like, physically attacked for those kind of things, right? And that was something that was a non-negotiable for me. I was not gonna repeat that with my kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But, it was scary because, well, you know, I would react, right? They would do something, and it would startle me, and I would react. And, like, you know, the most common thing that would happen is, like, I would yell, right? And I could see…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): in them, when I would react that way, that they were scared. Like, I would see the fear in their eyes.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that crushed me as a mom, you know? Like, I was… because I recognized that fear, I recognized, you know, that reaction in them, and so I kind of took a step back, and… and I was like, what is going on here? You know, getting really curious about that. And then that’s when I discovered it was because, you know, this is triggering for me, because it wasn’t safe in my nervous system to witness them acting in ways that I was not allowed to act.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so then that’s when I had to learn different ways.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, taking, like, lots of… so many different things. I, many different modalities, like EFT tapping, breathwork.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, going out for a little timeout when I’m feeling activated. I started to also start naming things, vocally with my kids, so if I was feeling overwhelmed, I would say, mama’s feeling overwhelmed right now, I just need a minute. I’m gonna step away. You know, and I would go to, like, the bathroom, or, you know, wherever was the case, or I would summon my husband and kind of tag team with him, and I was like, I need a moment, I need to collect myself, because I’m just in this, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): this state, right, that I know… that I’m not… I don’t feel in control right now, right? And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And then, of course, I have other supports. I have…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): lots and lots of, like, incredible resources and tools that I’ve picked up along my journey that I leaned on, you know, including others who were doing the same journey as me, who I knew were also trauma survivors, who I knew were parents that now had teenagers, had adult children, and I started asking them questions, like, how do you navigate this? Like, how do you do this? Like, really, really humbling myself and asking those who are a little bit further down the path than me.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): For their support and their advice and their tips. And so, so yeah, so those are some of the things that I started to really implement. And now, to this day, I am, you know, like, it’s a messy journey, but I am very much, and I talked a lot about this in my content,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I don’t pretend like I know it all with my kids, you know, whereas, like, growing up, my parents had all the answers, you know, like, and if they didn’t, like, you know, it’s like, you don’t question them. Like, it’s just, like, it’s just the way it is, right? Like, they are the all-knowing, they had them on a pedestal, all that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when I don’t know things, I tell them, mama doesn’t know, let me… let me find out, or let me… let’s learn together, those kind of things. I name emotions in my house, so my kids know what overwhelm is, they know what anger is, they know what sadness, frustration, all of those kind of things, because I name it to them, you know, when I’m experiencing those things. And then when they’re experiencing things, I also give it name, so that they’re not so confused, and they’re like, you know, because they’re just learning, you know, they’re…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they’re growing, and they’re feeling these things that they’ve never felt before, and it’s very overwhelming for them, right? And so then we learn to co-regulate together, right? Where I’m learning to regulate myself, my emotions, my nervous system, at the same time showing them, you know, how they can learn as well, right? But it’s messy. It’s messy. It’s not perfect, you know? It definitely… there’s days, you know, when it’s
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): doesn’t go as planned, you know? But then this is when, you know, again, the cycle breaking happens, and then I go into repair mode, right? There is never a time
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when I have done something, said something, reacted in a way where I felt remorseful and regretful, where they didn’t hear about it after. You know, and it’s gotten to the point now where they call me out, you know? Like, sometimes, you know, I’ll say something, and it’ll hurt my, sort of, for example, my 4-year-old, and a few hours later, he’ll come to me, he’s like, Mama, you hurt my feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I’m like, okay, buddy, let’s talk about it, right? And we sit down, we talk about it, and like, you know, I have this conversation with him and stuff, and, you know, and I tell him, you know, Mama sorry, I’m sorry that I spoke to you that way, you don’t deserve to be spoken to that way. I want you to know that, you know, and Mama sorry, and I’m gonna try my best.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): So that this doesn’t happen again, do you forgive me? You know, and he looks at me, he’s like, yeah, I forgive you, you know, and he gives me a hug, and, you know, and so we do that, and so I will never get tired, be too prideful, you know, to, like, apologize and own up and take responsibility for when my actions hurt them, you know, which is completely different than what was done to me, you know?
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, I was going to say.
Jessica Dueñas: how safe is that for your children, right? Because, again.
Jessica Dueñas: I think about my family, who did the best that they could, given the circumstances that they had, right? And they didn’t have the privilege to do the self-reflection that, like, a lot of our generation gets to do, right? And do the self-help and get into, like, therapy or coaching, etc. But, you know, I think about the times that
Jessica Dueñas: I, like, I dared to actually try that, right? To say, hey, that hurt my feelings, you know, like, for me, I would get so many comments, specifically, like, body-shaming comments, because I’ve always been in a larger body since I was small. And, and you know, like, I’m tall, I’m, like, 5’9″, you know, so I’ve never been small.
Jessica Dueñas: And there, you know, I think about all the times that I’ve tried to do that voicing, and how quickly it… I was, like, squashed like a little bug, you know? Like, it was…
Jessica Dueñas: that conversation space was not there to express if we were hurt, to express a possible mistake being made, and so I love that your children really can just come to you and say that, and that you don’t come off as threatened either, and I think that that’s really, really big.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Exactly, exactly, and huge, you know, and… and again, this has been a very messy journey, like, I want to emphasize that, because, you know, I have a lot of friends, I lead support circles for parents, all that kind of stuff, right? And they always joke, like, oh, we want to come and live in your house, we want you to be our mom, and like, all this stuff, and like, you know, and I’m like, listen, I’m not perfect, you know, like, but I am trying every single day, right? And I will
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): never give up trying to do better than I did yesterday, right? And I’m not too prideful, too, you know, this or that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): to admit when my faults, you know, have… when I’ve… when my faults have hurt somebody, especially my children, right? And this has been something that, for me, has been so critical, because I have a parent still to this day that I’m no contact with, because he cannot, to this day, admit his wrongs, admit that he hurt me, admit that, like, anything. Take responsibility for anything, you know? And I know how deeply wounding that is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I would never want to pass that down to my kids, right? So I’m intentional about
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, so how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna learn to, like, not repeat these things, right? And then I summon in all and every and all supports, resources, tools that I can, so that it can help me navigate this in a better, safer way, so that I can do a little better for them, and then they will do a little better for their children, right? And then that’s how the lineages start really healing, you know, passing that on. Because even, like, you know, talking about sobriety journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, something that I’m super proud of is…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): My parents… my children have never seen me drink. You know, obviously, I have… my oldest is 7, I have 11 years sobriety.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they haven’t even been around a drunk person, you know, to this day. Like, they’ve never… I wouldn’t even know how to explain to them what a drunk person looks like, you know? And that is so different from, like, what I grew up with, right? By their age, I was already experiencing abuse.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, had a lot of trauma, my dad, you know, witnessing him drink all the time, you know, like, yeah, like, it was just a completely different reality. And, you know, and so it’s like, I look to those examples of what I don’t want to do, and then I figure out how I can, support that decision that I’m not gonna do that, you know, and pass that down.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m so curious to dive into a little bit about, the decision to go no contact. A little bit about my story. So, I wouldn’t say that I experienced… I have mixed feelings, lots of mixed feelings, especially the longer I’m sober and the more that I navigate my childhood. You know, I would say that the biggest thing that I struggled with was, like, yes.
Jessica Dueñas: We had the classic.
Jessica Dueñas: I feel like the classic Latino first-generation home where, yes, you don’t talk about anything, you’re in survival mode, you know, the family’s just working, working, working, things like that. And I dealt with a lot of body shaming, again, because, like I mentioned, I was in a larger body, so I just got the brunt, like, everything that I did with regard to food was, like, like, picked apart, etc. So I would, you know, but I… I always hesitate if I want to say that that
Jessica Dueñas: was, like, my own childhood trauma, but it was. I mean, I would say that that was probably the foundation to my drinking later on, but that’s a whole separate story. I have a family member that I would say never directly traumatized me. However, in my adulthood, I actually chose to go no contact, almost because of their level of entitlement to access to me when they were actually just not present. So it was someone who was not present, and
Jessica Dueñas: So they didn’t hurt me, but they just weren’t there, and now they wanted to be in my life. And I was like, oh, no, I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way. However, I hear so many different people having so many different responses to the idea of no contact. Like, I’ve seen some people who I highly respect saying that, you know, no contact is this…
Jessica Dueñas: just, it’s the easy way out, supposedly.
Jessica Dueñas: for me, it is the easier way out, because I simply don’t want to deal with this individual, so yes, spot on. I don’t feel like working things out to make it work with this person, but in your case, this was a parent, this was your caregiver, who did cause harm. And so, for anyone who might be listening and kind of, like, debating, do I go no contact with this person from my childhood, or do I try to make it work.
Jessica Dueñas: How do you… Come to that decision.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I love that you’re asking this question, because this is something that I have started to really, really speak out more about, because exactly what you just shared, it’s so nuanced, it’s so layered, and it’s probably one of the most misunderstood, kind of judged-upon concepts that are out there in the healing space.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, what I can share is from my own personal lived experience, and kind of the journey to that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, we don’t become, like, as survivors, we don’t suddenly one day wake up and say, I’m not gonna speak to my dad ever again. You know, like, that’s just not the way it works. This was a decision that came after years upon years upon years of holding onto hope that this person was gonna change.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that this person was going to not even necessarily change, at least own up and take responsibility for the harm that they had caused. And in my case, that day never came. And in fact, he continued to do even more harm.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, as I continued, as I… as I journeyed through my recovery and healing, and in my heart of hearts, when I entered into my, my journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I had full-on… not just hopes, I had expectations that by me taking this step, me getting better, me, quitting drinking, all of that kind of stuff, because, you know, in my chaos, I know, I know that I had harmed my sisters, I had harmed my family, you know, I was wild, you know? Like, I… from 15 to 29, like, you know, alcohol ruled my life, and when you’re… when that is your number one thing.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): every day, nothing else matters, right? It is a very selfish disease, right? Like, which is all about me numbing myself, not dealing, all of that kind of stuff. And so I knew that I had caused… I had caused harm, you know, from the… my way of coping with the… with the trauma and all of that kind of stuff. And so when I entered into recovery, I was committed, and I also, expected that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they would, then follow suit, right? That they would then start looking at themselves, and that they would then, you know, get inspired and start, like, healing themselves, because when you start going into this journey, and you start seeing the benefits in your life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You want the people that you love the most to have that, too, right? You want them to have peace, you want them to have, you know, the sobriety, you want them to have the connections, you know, the relationships, all of that kind of stuff, all the beautiful things that start to unfold when you do the work and you start to heal. I wanted them so desperately to have that, too.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But unfortunately, in my case, that wasn’t the case with them. What it actually did was, I was a full-on mirror to them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And they were not ready to look at themselves, right? They were not ready to face, because by them facing and taking responsibility, that means… that meant they had to take ownership of their own stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And as you know, many of us, you know, culturally, we come from those families where you don’t talk about the family stuff, you know, you don’t share about it publicly, you don’t speak on it, you know, what happened in the past, days in the past, leave it in the past, right? We don’t speak about those things. We, especially publicly. Are you kidding me? Like, that is a big no-no in our
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And all of that was very… it was very detrimental, because I started healing out loud very early on in my journey. I started writing. Writing is super therapeutic for me. I started posting on social media, I started speaking publicly, like, it just really… one thing kind of led to the other, and the thing that kept me going was that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): every time that I would speak up on these things, I would have people come to me and share their Me Too stories, right? They’re like, oh my goodness, you just put words into, like, my experience, I thought I was the only one. Oh, like, all these kind of things, right? And I so really discovered that it was bigger than me. This whole healing out loud thing was even bigger than me. It was a bigger mission that was actually having ripple effects that were just… that were beyond me, right? And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Anyway, so I, you know, continued on my journey and stuff like that, and I made several attempts.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): to try to repair my relationship with my dad, because at the end of the day, and this is what hurts the most, is that, when there’s… when… when I made that decision, there was a deep grief, deep grief, that… that hole in me will never, ever be filled. Like, I can tell you that now, because it’s been several years, and I’ve come to accept that this is something that I’m going to live with. I just learned to manage it, right? And the reason why there is grief
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): There is because there was such deep love.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? Because ultimately, even though, you know, my dad was my primary abuser, even though, you know, he’s the one who caused me the most harm in the world, I still loved him. You know, I still wanted to be his little girl. I still wanted to have, you know, this… I held on to hope that one day we would have, you know, this healed relationship.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and I didn’t ask for much, I just wanted him to acknowledge. You know, to say, like, hey, like, I’m sorry that I, like, I did this to you, I’m sorry, or just even acknowledge that he did stuff, right? But…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, my dad’s also narcissistic, too, so very difficult, you know, when you’re dealing with a narcissist that, you know, can never see his wrong, and everything gets turned on you.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so, you know, for me, it ended up happening where there was a breaking point. I’m not gonna get into super big details, but, basically, I expected him to really own up. He had done something that was really hurtful to our entire family, and I held the expectation that he was finally going to own up, he was finally going to take responsibility, and he did the exact opposite. And that’s when I had to really draw a line, and I was like, enough.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I can’t anymore. And so that’s when I made that decision that it just no longer was safe for me. You know, now that I had my own family, it was no longer safe for me to continue holding on to this hope that he was going to become this person, that he was just clearly not becoming. And he had no intention. No intentions of, you know, rectifying the situation or anything like that, right? So, you know, for my own safety, for my own continued healing.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I made the difficult choice and decision to, just, you know, kind of cut him from my life, right? And, it is still something that is so… it’s deeply painful.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But I have no regrets, to be honest, because the sense of peace that I now have, you know, is, yeah, like, I just… I’ve finally kind of… that deep wound is healing. There’s a scab there, you know, and one day the scab will peel off, and there’ll be, you know, a scar there that will always remind me of that wound.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But it doesn’t… it wasn’t something that, you know, I just woke up one day and I was like, oh, I’m not gonna speak to him, because I don’t want to deal with him. No, this was, like, a consistent
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): year after year, trying, trying, holding onto hope, all of that kind of stuff, right? And he just continued to cause not only my self-harm, but my entire family, and continues to do so. Like, to this day. You know, he has lost everything in his life, and he still chooses to walk the path that he’s always walked, where he’s the victim, you know, everyone else is against him, all of that kind of, like, mentality and mindset, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, it’s a very nuanced, very difficult, very misunderstood,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): kind of topic, but I’ve actually been speaking out a lot more about it, and again, the conversations I have with others that can really relate have been, like, so validating.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and also, reminds me how important it is to kind of speak out about these things, right? Because on the outside, if you just hear it and you don’t know the context, it could sound, like, harsh, or, like, people will judge you, like, oh, but you hear all the things, but he’s your dad! Oh, but, like, forgive and forget, oh, like, all these things, right? And it’s like, you, like, you… yes, I’ve… and, you know, I’ve also done, you know, so much to try to, like, salvage this, and it just… there comes a point when you’re the only one
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that’s paddling the boat, and the other person is just, like, you know, not helping at all. You know, so…
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and I mean, you know, I feel like you speak to a couple truths, right? Like, number one, we cannot control other people’s journeys, and if your father has been on whatever journey he’s in, and that’s hurtful to you all.
Jessica Dueñas: you can’t stop him from that. I think the second thing that you said that really jumped out at me was that you didn’t, like, wake up… this wasn’t your dream, right? And I think about, you know, several books that I have, like, recently… well, one book that I’ve recently read, and then another one that I’ve been diving into. I think it was Kelly McDaniel’s Mother Hunger, and then right now I started listening to Ingrid Clayton’s Fawning.
Jessica Dueñas: Both of them talk about the fact that when parents… I mean, you know, mother hunger’s about moms, but when parents are causing harm to their children, their child will literally do everything possible to still justify holding onto a relationship, that it is never this natural instinct for a child. Like, a child will almost choose the harm first for the sake of keeping that relationship with the parent.
Jessica Dueñas: before they end it. So, to get to the point that you said, that you had to let go, you know, it’s like people need to also believe people when they say, like, I made this decision, and you need to trust me in my decision, as opposed to re-traumatizing me by asking me to go into detail about all the things to justify it. You know, it’s like, if people aren’t in your position, they don’t understand it. But I think that it’s so important to validate, and so I do
Jessica Dueñas: appreciate you speaking to that. The other thing I wanted to ask you about that had jumped out from hearing you speak, you talked about the breaking cycles part, and I love how you talked at one point about tag-teaming with your husband when you’re like, you’re like, hey, kids, I’m overwhelmed, mama’s overwhelmed, I need a moment.
Jessica Dueñas: How has your dynamic with your significant other played into this cycle breaking? Like, is he on a similar healing journey, or is he just supportive? I’m so curious how that dynamic works.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, great question. Again, so good. So, on the outside looking in, you know, my husband and I come from totally different backgrounds. He came from, you know, a very healthy family.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): hardworking parents, immigrants from Portugal, you know, very, very… worked very hard all their lives.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But on the extreme on his end, was that growing up, he actually only remembers his parents ever arguing, like, one or two times. That’s it. And, you know, so that brought this other spectrum to him, where he didn’t know how to have healthy conflict.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): He didn’t know how to navigate emotions, because same thing, his parents, all they did was work really hard, and when he was struggling, like, you know, he had a…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): a time in his life when he was being bullied at school, and he told me how painful it was for him to experience that, and he would come home, and he would cry to his mom, and his mom couldn’t comfort him. She didn’t know what to do, right? Because she also came from this lineage of, like, you know, you work hard, you provide for your kids, your kids are everything, right? But emotionals, emotions and, you know, affection? We don’t do that, you know? Like, we give you a roof over your head, food, you know, on the table, clothes.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): all that kind of stuff, right? But, like, that deep connection part?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): was kind of missing, and so, you know, when we got together and, you know, we… I went on my journey and all of that kind of stuff, because him and I have been together for 16 years now, and so he has seen every version of me, and every version, you know, and we’ve worked through a ton of things together. We’ve gone through… we were together for 10 years before we became parents, so we definitely had a very solid, stable foundation in our relationship.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Before we became parents.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, and then… but of course, when you get into the journey, it’s totally different, right? Because everything you thought you were going to do suddenly gets challenged, right? Because it’s like, this is real life here. And, he started to also feel triggered when he would experience, you know, the toddler ages is when we both remember that something clicked, that things were starting to become challenging, right? Because it’s these big feelings, and we didn’t know how to hold those feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, how do we teach them? You know, we were taught to just, like, it gets smacked out of you, right? If you’re, like, if you’re gonna, like, react that way, all that kind of stuff. And we both knew that that was not what we wanted to do. And so, we both were on… very much on the same page that we were gonna do whatever we could so that we wouldn’t have these same patterns, right? And so, for him, he had to go on his own journey. He’s still on that, like, journey of learning how to,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, hold his own emotions, process them, you know, especially men, you know, like, European men, like, you know, it’s, like, tough, strong, you know, like, you never see them cry, like, all this kind of stuff, right? And he’s really learned to challenge that in himself, because he also doesn’t want to pass that down, right? Like, the other day, he was playing soccer, he was passing the ball back and forth with our two older boys.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that night, because we always, like, you know, kind of come together afterwards, and he was telling me, he’s like, you know, I was thinking today, when I was, like, playing soccer with the boys, how my dad never played with me. He’s like, never. You know, he’s like, I was… and he was, like, an only child for the first 7 years of his life, and then his brother came, and then, you know, another 7 years after his little sister came.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, you know, he said, like, he remembers, like, how lonely it felt, and how he wanted, like, that, you know, kind of fatherly love, and like, you know, we grow up in North America, we see.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): on TV, these, like, perfect TV families, and, like, all this stuff, and we’re like, wait a minute, like, that’s not my family, you know? Like, and you start wanting, craving what you see, but you’re not getting that, right? And so, you know, so things like that started to really, like, he became aware of, that he was like, no, I want to be able to, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): give my kids what I was never given, right? And so he’s cycle breaking in his own way, right? Even though it’s not from, like, abuse, addiction, things like that I experienced in my life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, he has his own things that he’s working through, and we’re a team. We are a complete team when it comes to our parenting and in life. Like, we truly have, you know, and again, this didn’t come easy. This is not, you know, that, like, natural for us. We have help. We have resources, we have supports that we lean on to be able to help us, you know, as a couple, individually, and as parents, so that we can
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): do better for our kids, right? And we are both breaking cycles in different ways, in different ways, and we still, you know, we have deep talks sometimes. At the end of the day, after, like, an intense day, because, like I said, now my kids are… there’s four of them, my baby, he’s almost two now, he’s walking, he’s, like, getting into things, right? They have lots of, like… and they feel so incredibly safe at home.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that they just lose their marbles. You know, like, they are just in high energy and tense.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): all the feelings, because they feel safe. They know that they can be that way, right, around us. And, you know, at the end of the day, sometimes, like, we debrief with each other, and we have these really beautiful, long discussions about, like, you know, our struggles and things that, like, the shame that comes, and all that kind of stuff, and we, like, help each other out, right? And, like, and remind each other how good we’re both doing, and highlight the things that we’re actually noticing of each other, all of that kind of stuff, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and it really is a partnership, and in order for it to be that way. We do have slight parenting, like, different styles, but, you know, it kind of complements it, right? Like, I’m more of, like, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like, more, like, like, more structured, more like, you know, I, like, I’m very, like, you know, kind of, in a sense, disciplined.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, where dad is, like, you know, kind of fun dad, he’s like, you know, like, it’s just different dynamics, right? But it complements it well, right? Yeah, it’s a really beautiful journey, and it’s something that is very humbling. Very humbling.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, well, I love that you mentioned, kind of, like, pushing back against shame when you’re debriefing, because I am curious, you know, since you are both obviously part of Greater Family Systems, do you ever deal with any, say, either family members or just people in general being judgy towards you for your choice in parenting style? Because, you know, for example, you’ve never used the term gentle parenting, and I’m not saying that what you are
Jessica Dueñas: doing is quote-unquote gentle parenting, but, you know, I see the jokes on social media when you have
Jessica Dueñas: old-school parents who are criticizing people who are doing things differently. So I’m curious how you deal with that if it comes up in your lives.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): All the time. All the time. And I love that you brought up gentle parenting. It is kind of like this, like, trendy term, you know, and I consider what we’re doing, rather than gentle parenting, it’s conscious parenting, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): The difference is, is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): we are very conscious, we are very present and aware of, like, what we are doing, right? And we have to be that way in order for us to be able to then repair, right? When we mess up and all of that kind of stuff, right? When we’re unconscious, and we are just operating from a way of, kind of automatic, you know, autopilot, all of that kind of stuff, or disconnection, you know, like dissociation, a lot of parents who, you know, come from trauma.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they’re very dissociated most of our child, like, the childhood, right? They don’t even remember when you ask them, like, well, what was this like when we were kids? They’re like, I don’t know. And it’s because they were in survival mode. You know, like, that’s when, you know, you’re repeating the cycles. You’re repeating, like, the reactions, all of that kind of stuff. So rather than
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, gentle parenting, and I see the memes too, like, like, you know, like, people talk about gentle parenting, but my kids aren’t gentle, like, those kind of things.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But, yeah, it is definitely a conversation that we have, and we have to have firm boundaries with our families, because they love to come and tell us, you know, like, oh, you know, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like, their opinions of how we should be parenting our children, right? And sometimes I have to be brave on my end, and I have to stand up for my kids, because, you know, certain family members will talk to them in ways that are not okay. You know, like, it’s like that, we don’t talk to our kids that way, like, you know, please don’t speak to them that way, right? And then they come with backlash, oh, you’re spoiling them, that’s why this and this and that. I’m like, no, like, for me, this is abuse, and…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): abuse is not tolerated in our home. We’re learning ways, you know, of navigating, you know, our parenting with them, and it’s different, right? It’s different, and we’ve had to have many, many, many, many conversations. You know, like my in-laws, there are,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): some of our primary caregivers, and we love that. We love the relationship that they have with our kids. It’s so close. They love them. They’re there, like, twice a week, you know, and they’re… and they’re… they’ve semi-raised them, in a sense, right? But there have been things that we notice
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That we need to nip in the butt right away, right? Like, certain things that, I can’t think of, like, a specific example, but certain things that we just, like, we’re like, no, we don’t like that, you know, and so we have to… we have to, like, stand up to them in a gentle way, and express to them that, you know, hey, like, this is not okay, like, this is not how we’re raising them, right? And then you just have to kind of put up with, you know, the comments that you’re gonna get, right? Like, oh, you’re… you’re spoiling them, oh, you know, at their age.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Or, oh, like, this, this, and that, and like, it’s like, okay, that’s fine. You know, and one of the things is that,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and this is something I had to overcome, I personally had to overcome this, is getting upset with kids for kids being kids. You know, children are children. You know, they’re loud, they’re rambunctious, they have energy, you know, they love to, like, run and play and jump and do all these things, right? They’re… they’re kids, and, like, one of the modalities that I’m deeply, like, passionate about is human design, and when we learn about the human design of our children, it makes so much sense.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, without going into full-on details about that, because that could be a whole other podcast.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Many of my children are, energy, like, they’re energy beings, and so, they are, from the moment they wake up, their batteries are full, to the end of the day when their batteries are drained, and they go to bed immediately. Their head hits the pillow, and they are drained, right? And I’m also an energy being, so is Nelson.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And my husband. And for them, they need a lot of movement and stimulation and, like, you know, and things like that. And so learning about that with them has been a big game changer, and I don’t want to shut that down in them, because that’s how they are designed.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so, for our families, it may look like they’re just out of control and wild, but it’s like, they’re just being kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, like, they’re just being kids, and I’m not gonna shut them down for being kids, because I was shut down for being a kid.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, I was shut down for, like, having this, like, energy burst, and, like, doing all these crazy things, and, like, you know, bouncing off the walls, all of that kind of stuff, right? It’s like, no, like, I had to really decondition myself from getting upset at them for being kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, like, a common example is.
Jessica Dueñas: You know, and this is, like, a big test, is, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, when you’re at the dinner table, and one of them, you know, this always happens, the minute that we bring out an open cup, there’s gonna be a spill, you know? And so, like, one of them will, like, have, like, you know, water in their cup, and then they spill it, right? Because they’re just, like, flailing, and this and that. And that’s a true test of, like, you know, growing up, I would, like… it was a big deal if I made a mess. It was, like, yelling, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): what did you do? Look what you did, blah blah blah blah blah, you know? And, like, this, like, reaction, right? And, like, the amount of restraint it takes for me to, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): It’s like, okay, they’re a kid, it was an accident, you know, they didn’t mean to, like, do that because, like, you know, they’re just being kids, right? And so really restraining and being like, okay, like, it was an accident, buddy, let’s clean it up together, you know, let’s grab a cloth and, like, those kind of things, right? They’re just being kids, you know, where it’s like, they don’t need discipline over that, like, it was an accident, you know, like, and so things like that is just, like, it’s so much…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like I said, conscious parenting. We’re conscious of it, right? We’re aware, we’re present with them, and we know that this is just, like, you know, like, we can’t be upset with them for being kids, you know, this is… because what happens is that when you…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when you’re… when you kind of shut them down, they shut down, and then that’s when the conditioning and the programming starts happening, where, you know, they start to silence themselves, they start to self-censor, they start to… they can’t be safe to be who they are, and then that’s what leads to a whole slew of things in adulthood, right? People-pleasing, depression, anxiety, all of these things, because they were never allowed to be who they are, right? It was not okay, they would get in trouble.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and so things like that are definitely a journey that both of us are very mindful of, very conscious of, and it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. You know, the cup thing, too, going back to the good old social media, like, I’ve seen these reels that joke about that same moment, right? That the cup is spilled, and, like, let’s say if it was me spilling the cup, and how would my mom respond versus to, like, the baby, and, like, how now if they spill it, it’s like, oh, it’s okay, but then, you know, back in the day, spilling the cup was, like, the end of it all, right? But, I mean, you speak of real truth, and I think about…
Jessica Dueñas: How even in adulthood, if I’ve done anything like that, like accidentally knock something over, and even me, myself, bracing as if, like, other grown adults are going to get just so angry with me over something so innocent, but it is, you get conditioned over time to, like.
Jessica Dueñas: to not make mistakes, and if you make a mistake, that it’s really not okay, and it really… I mean, it’s rooted deep in. And so, I’m so glad that you brought that up.
Jessica Dueñas: So, speaking of your kids, I feel like, kind of like a last big question I kind of have is, what have your children taught you about healing?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Or the reclamation process, that you didn’t.
Jessica Dueñas: actually expect.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Hmm.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, I mean, the whole… the whole journey has taught me everything, like, really how they are just, like, a reflection of little me, you know? Like…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Anytime that I have a really big reaction, I almost, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I depersonalize it in the sense that it’s, like, it’s not really grown-up me having that reaction, it’s actually little me having that reaction, you know, inside, because of, like, you know, it wasn’t safe at one time, and all of that kind of stuff. They truly are my mirrors, every single day, you know, and the other thing is that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): just like many of us, we were told so many things growing up, right? We were, like, preached upon, we were, like, you know, like, told ad nauseam certain things.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But then the actions were so different, right? There was this cognitive dissonance growing up, where, like, for example, my dad had this thing about us, like, swearing, but meanwhile, every other word that he spoke was a swear word, you know? Like, these, like, kind of, like, weird things like that, right? And, like, for us, time and time again, it’s proven that we can tell them anything.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But they are not gonna listen, they are gonna watch us. They’re gonna watch what we’re doing, they’re gonna watch how we’re handling life, they’re gonna watch how, you know, even in our interactions, like, with each other, me and Nelson.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): if we have disagreements with each other, you know, like, they see it, right? And they come, they’re like, you know, they’re, like, very, like,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they get very nervous about that, because they don’t see that. Like, me and Nelson, we do not, like, scream at each other, like, it’s just… that’s… we have a mutual deep love and respect towards each other that we don’t, like, argue that way, right? But, you know, we’re human, and sometimes, you know, we’re gonna have bad days and things like that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And we allow for them to kind of witness, you know, kind of a little bit of a…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): of a fracture happen, and then the repair happened, right? And we open the questions up, right? And so, really, really knowing that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they are watching us, right? And they’re watching what we’re doing every day, and that’s what’s the blueprint that’s gonna be for them, of how they’re gonna treat, you know, their significant others when they’re older, right? It’s not what we’re telling them every day, it’s really the example that we’re giving them, and that, for me, was…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): a really big wake-up call, right? Because I could say all the right things, you know, but if I’m doing, like, a totally different thing, they’re gonna pick up on the things, you know, that they’re actually witnessing, right? And so, yeah, they are my greatest teachers, my biggest mirrors, you know, and also my biggest why. It’s the reason why I do what I do.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, I just have to look at them, you know, like, for a second, and I get tears in my eyes, so I’m just like, oh my gosh, these are my babies. Like, even last night, they all crawled into our bed, you know, and I just, like, turn and look, and there they are with me, you know, and safe, and sleeping, and I’m just, like, I get so emotional, you know, because it’s, like, little simple things like that, that I know that they’re just so tender, and that they feel safe.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that, we’re able to, you know, provide them a healthy, happy, real home. You know, it’s not perfect.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, but it’s real. It’s real, and it’s tender, and, you know, we’re doing it together, and they’re healing alongside me, you know, the generations. It’s something that they’re picking up on, too, right? Because these are the things that they’re going to pass down to their kids, right? So, how important that is.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that, Abby. It’s just, like, it makes my heart all warm and fuzzy. It’s seriously so beautiful to hear, and it makes me excited to continue my journey with my daughter, since, you know, I’ve only been doing this for 9 months, so it’s really exciting just hearing you and your experience speak to this. So, Abby, I guess anything that you would say to anybody who is looking to start? I think about, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: You had mentioned earlier that you’d been in this journey, right? You’d been sober for about 4 years before you became a mother, so you kind of had some background in some of this work before stepping into parenthood.
Jessica Dueñas: What would you say to maybe the mother who is already a mother, and maybe she’s just now stepping into, like, day one of sobriety, and who’s, like, feeling overwhelmed, might be feeling some shame about the fact that, like, her child has seen her drink, right? Or anything like that. Where… where does she go from here?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I will say what I say to all my clients, you know, to, you know, friends, support, support, support. You cannot do this by yourself. You cannot…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and you don’t have to. You know, number one, you’re not alone.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, that you’re… there’s nothing wrong… fundamentally wrong with you, you know, that… that you’re not the only one in the world that is experiencing this, and… and all that… that shame that comes, you know, from feeling like I’m the only one, no one gets it, you know, if only they knew, all those kind of things, right? You’re not alone, you’re not the only one, and that support and help is available, you know? And it sometimes is a bit of a journey to find that support and resources, that’s why I do what I do.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): because I became my, like, a resource.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that I so desperately needed in my early days that I had to hunt and look for and all of that kind of stuff, but it really is a community. It is really leaning in on resources and supports as much as you can, because you cannot do this by yourself. And you won’t, you know? It will just lead to shame and isolation, and you don’t need to. You don’t need to suffer in silence, right? And that’s my biggest message, is that you’re not alone, and that you can… you can
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): will heal. We do recover, you know, and there is hope, but not by yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and also what I always think about, too, like, when I’m facilitating sobriety support meetings, and there are, say, the parents stepping in who… their children have seen them at their worst.
Jessica Dueñas: you know, I’m always like, well, this is an opportunity for your children to also witness what healing looks like, and that we can turn things around, right? And so, yes, they’ve seen you in all your phases, and they can also see you make the decision to be the one that changes things. And so, I think that that’s incredibly powerful, too, for anyone who already has had kids before getting sober, you know, because that’s a lot of people. You know, for me, it’s a gift. I’m so grateful that I got sober
Jessica Dueñas: first, but, you know, I know that that is not the reality for many, many people in sobriety spaces. So, I mean, Abby, thank you so, so, so much for your time today. Again, this has been beautiful, and I could speak to you for hours, but if anybody who was listening did want to follow you, or did want to maybe take part of some of the work that you offer, what are the best ways for people to find you?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, so Instagram is my jam, that’s where I’m mainly present on, and my handle is mavi, so it’s at V-E-E.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, that’s just what… how you say, Abby in Spanish, abi, that’s, like, it’s kind of a play to my inner child, you know, growing up, because people always ask, like, what does that mean? Like, you know? And then the other thing, yeah, if somebody wants to explore what it would look like to potentially, you know, have me as their support, as their guide, as their mentor, I do offer a complimentary 60-minute call, where we kind of dive into kind of your leadership style.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): in human design, so there’s a mini analysis that I do in there, and I really discover what your unique blueprint is in leading, whether it’s in your home, your communities, in your business.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so I love those kind of sessions, they’re free, and then if it makes sense, then we have an opportunity to explore what it would look like to work deeper in one of my coaching containers.
Jessica Dueñas: Awesome. Well, Abby, thank you again so much. I so appreciate you being here with me. Any last note that you’d like to say to anybody before we jump off?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): No, thank you so much for your time. You are such a gem, and I’m so honored to be on this path with you, you know, as a recovering, healing Latina woman and a mother. You know, this work is so important, and so I’m really, really honored that, you know, we had this important conversation together, and I look forward to many more connections!
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In this episode:
I sit down with award-winning investigative journalist Shoshana Walter, author of Rehab: An American Scandal, to discuss the hidden truths of America’s rehab industry and what her reporting reveals about treatment, recovery, and justice.
Resources:
Purchase Rehab: An American Scandal via Shoshana Walter’s Site
NY Times Magazine Article Referenced
Also mentioned:
Book Study On The Mountain Is You
Transcript:
Jessica Dueñas: Hi everyone, welcome back. It has been quite a break here at Bottomless to Sober, but I am super happy to pick things back up today with a very special guest.
Jessica Dueñas: I have award-winning investigative journalist Shoshana Walter, who has a new book out called Rehab, an American Scandal. She is here to talk about some of the work, some of the research that she is uncovering, especially with some of the problems that do happen in these facilities. Those of you who know my story know I was in and out of treatment about 7 or 8 times, and so I’m really, really curious to hear what Shoshana has
Jessica Dueñas: say, if you’ve been following the podcast, you know that a few weeks ago, I actually interviewed Robert Marino, who runs a treatment facility, and so he gave us one perspective, but I do think that it is so important to be well-informed while you go into your journey, or while you explore your options for others. So, here we have a fresh perspective with some research, and again, it’s a complete honor to have you, Shoshana, so thank you so much for being here.
Jessica Dueñas: And yes…
Shoshana Walter: Thank you.
Jessica Dueñas: Anyone who doesn’t know your work, can you tell me a little bit about what drew you into, investigating the rehab industry?
Shoshana Walter: Sure, yeah. I have been a long-time investigative reporter, mostly focused on the criminal justice system. And so, about 8 years ago, I was a reporter at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting.
Shoshana Walter: looking at drug courts and diversion court programs, and I just sort of stumbled across this
Shoshana Walter: rehab program that was being utilized by courts throughout Arkansas and Oklahoma, and…
Shoshana Walter: when I started doing a little bit of research on this program.
Shoshana Walter: I learned that it had been founded by a former poultry industry executive, and that the program was sending participants to work without pay at chicken processing plants, where they were making chicken products for KFC and Popeyes and Walmart and PetSmart, and they weren’t getting paid anything, they were working long hours in very
Shoshana Walter: Difficult, injury-prone jobs.
Shoshana Walter: And this was predominantly their sole form of what they were calling treatment, was this uncompensated work.
Shoshana Walter: And, so I was just totally caught by surprise by this, because over the course of the opioid epidemic, I feel like there has been this major shift in our country of…
Shoshana Walter: lawmakers and policymakers, court officials, starting to view addiction as a disease worthy of compassion and worthy of medical care instead of incarceration. That’s the idea behind a lot of these drug court and diversion court programs. So I was really…
Shoshana Walter: Perplexed that
Shoshana Walter: a form of indentured servitude would be considered treatment by so many of these officials. And it made me want to understand how common that is, and…
Shoshana Walter: if that’s a major component of our treatment system, which is something that, yes, I did find it was, you know, what does the rest of our treatment landscape look like, and is it helping people the way that it should, if we want to get more people out of this cycle of addiction?
Jessica Dueñas: That is terrifying to hear, and honestly, it’s also not shocking. I really… I wish I were better informed about the treatment system, and I’m sure you’re gonna shed a little bit of knowledge here today, because
Jessica Dueñas: from the different facilities that I went to when I was struggling, one thing that I definitely noticed was that there was no one type of method. It didn’t seem to be that there was any standardization of practice or, like, what is best for the patients. I experienced very, very different treatments at the different facilities that I went to. So I’m curious, once you started digging.
Jessica Dueñas: What… what did you notice about how these different treatment facilities operate?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, that’s such a good question, and I kind of am curious. I want to know a little bit more about your different experiences in these treatment programs.
Shoshana Walter: But, you know, as you just explained.
Shoshana Walter: there’s so much variability in treatment, so it’s very hard to break it down into broader categories. But that is… that is kind of… that was kind of my approach with this book, is really understanding what the treatment landscape broadly looks like, and what are the problems in this system that are… that are preventing it from working the way that it really needs to be working.
Shoshana Walter: And so, what I found, and this is specifically for opioid addiction, I know that, Jessica, you had
Shoshana Walter: you had… you had experience with alcohol addiction previously. But with opioid addiction, you know, there’s… there’s, these programs that I was just talking about that are often utilized by the court system.
Shoshana Walter: Or utilized by families that don’t have the financial resources to send one of their loved ones to an insurance-funded program, for example, or a longer-term program.
Shoshana Walter: You have medication-assisted treatments like Suboxone or buprenorphine and methadone, that are very effective for opioid addiction, and
Shoshana Walter: have been proven to reduce overdose deaths by more than 50%, but what I found there is that these medications are really still difficult for patients to access, and also to remain on.
Shoshana Walter: And there’s a long history behind that there. And I also looked at the barriers that exist to treatment for many people, particularly people who are lower income or living in poverty, who don’t have insurance coverage. It can be still incredibly difficult for people to access treatment, despite the fact that the Affordable Care Act expanded treatment coverage
Shoshana Walter: to millions of Americans.
Shoshana Walter: And then the other, kind of.
Shoshana Walter: bucket of treatment, you could say, that I looked at.
Shoshana Walter: were, these insurance-funded programs that really proliferated with the Affordable Care Act. And those are… those are limited by what insurance companies are willing to pay for, and so they’re designed around maximizing billable services.
Shoshana Walter: And oftentimes, the most insurance companies are willing to pay for are these 30-day programs, or programs that last maybe no more than a month or two.
Shoshana Walter: And, the problem that I’ve seen again and again with these programs, especially with opioid addiction, is that people go in, they complete the program, even the most well-intended programs, people complete those programs, they leave, and then they relapse, because they…
Shoshana Walter: Do not have the support to which they grew accustomed in rehab, and that treatment program did not necessarily help those individuals come up with a plan of utilizing and accessing support for once they leave.
Shoshana Walter: And so, we now know from research that has been done that someone who completes a 30-day program is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who failed to complete that program at all.
Shoshana Walter: So there’s a way that we’re funding treatment in this country that’s actually fueling the problem, contributing to relapse rates.
Shoshana Walter: And that’s also contributing, unfortunately, to many overdose deaths.
Jessica Dueñas: Hmm.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, I’m so curious, with regard to the people who successfully complete a program exit, and they are more likely to die of a drug overdose in that first year. Now, is it because of their tolerance that their body has kind of reset that tolerance in those 30 days that they stayed clean, and so it’s just, when they go out and they relapse, it’s over, essentially?
Shoshana Walter: Exactly, yes, exactly. Someone enters the program. Oftentimes these programs require obstinence from all substances, including, perhaps, addiction treatment medications.
Shoshana Walter: And so that person then stops using the substance they had been using, their tolerance level goes down, and then when they leave the rehab, and they often relapse.
Shoshana Walter: Because their tolerance level has gone down, they use the same amount of opioid that they previously had used, and now it’s too much for them, and it leads to overdose.
Shoshana Walter: And the same is true, also, for stints of incarceration. I think the statistic is something like.
Shoshana Walter: Someone who is recently released from a period of incarceration is 40 times more likely to overdose and die following that period of incarceration than someone from the general population of opioid users.
Shoshana Walter: So, these programs that Segregate and isolate people kind of away from their usual surroundings.
Shoshana Walter: They can be godsends, but also they can lead to increased risk of overdose death, especially when the supports that people need post-rehab are just not there.
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, what you’re saying, honestly, Shoshana, lines up exactly with so many of my lived experiences. So, yes, my personal addiction was to alcohol. However, I was always housed in treatment facilities with people recovering primarily from opiate addiction, some from methamphetamines and other things, but I was in Kentucky, so definitely an area where you’re going to see a lot of opiate addiction there. And, one of the residential
Jessica Dueñas: programs that I was in. It was a 35-day program, and I remember we were sitting, we had,
Jessica Dueñas: throughout the day, we had, like, group, and so in one of the groups, we were being led by a counselor, and I so remember her saying, this is a fortress, and here you’re safe, but when you exit, you know, you’re still taking… everything that you brought in with you is still going back out with you. And really, they were trying to encourage people to, say, consider sober living options and some sort of, like, transitional housing
Jessica Dueñas: before going right back home. But I’ll be honest, you know, like, when I was having those conversations, I was very resistant to the idea, like, I didn’t want to go into sober housing, I just wanted to go home. And of course, I immediately relapsed when I left, but, you know, I drank alcohol, blacked out, and that was… in a sense, that was it for me. I was alright, thankfully. But I… I definitely remember stories of people that I was in treatment with.
Jessica Dueñas: who are not here anymore, because they were told the same thing, they didn’t have that, you know, transitional support, and then they struggled greatly. So I’m curious,
Jessica Dueñas: Do you think that there is a way for people to…
Jessica Dueñas: recover or work through, like, their chronic addiction and transition? Maybe not to full abstinence, as you were mentioning, but is there a way to recover, perhaps without using a treatment facility where you’re not pulled from your environment and you can kind of start to work on some of those processes, or what do you think there?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, I mean, I think…
Shoshana Walter: It’s really hard to say, because recovery is such a personal, individualized experience, and what may work for one person might not work for another person. I mean, you know, the rehab that I was talking about before, that…
Shoshana Walter: required people to work in chicken plants. You know, there were definitely people that I interviewed at this program who said, you know, that’s what they needed, you know? So, I feel like different things can really work for different people, but I have seen…
Shoshana Walter: that…
Shoshana Walter: In my experience, you know, having interviewed hundreds of people in and out of recovery, it’s often a long-term process of change.
Shoshana Walter: And so, treatment that’s longer term and that provides that ongoing support.
Shoshana Walter: is really incredibly key. And I think this is especially true for people who are the most marginalized, you know, who maybe come into their addictions already
Shoshana Walter: facing the consequences of structural inequality, but also, you know, the longer someone remains in their addiction, the more marginalized they become, because in our country, there are so many consequences that
Shoshana Walter: are caused by being in addiction. I mean, it can come along with additional mental health and physical, trauma.
Shoshana Walter: It can lead to criminal charges and convictions. All of that can lead to, loss of…
Shoshana Walter: voting rights, inability to find a job, inability to find housing, difficulty accessing food and healthcare and transportation. You know, there are these consequences that come along with addiction that just continue to mount the longer you remain in addiction.
Shoshana Walter: And those consequences become as much of a barrier to recovery for a lot of people, as the addiction itself. You know, it can become an obstacle in and of itself.
Shoshana Walter: And so, I think that is also one really important piece that is missing from our treatment system. It’s what researchers refer to as recovery capital.
Shoshana Walter: And that is the mixture of internal and external resources that people need in order to enter and sustain their recovery. And that can include social and community support, but it also includes all these other aspects, you know.
Shoshana Walter: housing, financial stability, job, food, healthcare, transportation, you know, these are the elements that are really going to allow people to sustain their recovery. And these are the elements that are missing for a lot of people when they leave treatment. And so, if those elements are missing, if a treatment program is not addressing those gaps.
Shoshana Walter: Then relapse for many people is very likely.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and you know, when you were talking about the healthcare piece, I was reading, you know, just learning more about your work. Like I mentioned before we went live on this call, I was reading about the young woman, Jade Dass, whose story you covered starting a few years ago, and, you know, I’d recommend to anyone listening to Google it. I’ll also post a link to some of the resources about this story, but
Jessica Dueñas: This was a both powerful and heartbreaking story about a young woman who struggled with addiction, was
Jessica Dueñas: on a path of recovery was using Suboxone as prescribed appropriately by a medical doctor, and then that was kind of used against her to take the child, her baby, away eventually, who was perfectly healthy, and it’s just kind of been this ongoing custody battle for her to have her child, and then, like, you know, left and right, all these other barriers, like you were just mentioning, Shoshana, were just, like.
Jessica Dueñas: thrown at her, and, you know, in this case, it’s impacting her, not just her recovery, but her ability to be a parent, but yes, like, these barriers pop up, and it becomes very easy to turn around and just say, you know what, I’m done. I give up, because it seems like there are so many barriers coming across people, and I think that it’s so important to look at a whole picture.
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes I remember in some of these spaces, you know, being told, well, just don’t drink. And it’s not so simple. You know, I wish it was just so simple to put down whatever substance it is that we’re addicted to, but it’s really complex.
Jessica Dueñas: Shoshana, one of the things about my story that really struck me when reading about some of the work that you’re doing.
Jessica Dueñas: When I was in treatment in 2020, I also didn’t have great judgment, and I fell in love with someone who I was in treatment with, and his drug of choice was opiates.
Jessica Dueñas: He did not live, unfortunately, he had a relapse, shortly, you know, once the pandemic started, and we had no supports in place, you know, he did use again, and he didn’t make it, and that made things very difficult.
Jessica Dueñas: But one of the things that I think about with his journey and trying to recover from opiates was the facility that we were in also really kept, pushing us to go to AA meetings.
Jessica Dueñas: And, I mean, you know, for me, sure, with an addiction to alcohol, if I choose to use language like an alcoholic, maybe that could be more applicable to me. I mean, I also don’t think it’s people’s first language, and I don’t personally attend 12-step programs.
Jessica Dueñas: I know it works for a lot of people, though, but I remember when he was still alive, and when he was starting to struggle, I would say, but why are you going to AA? You are not an alcoholic. Your drug of choice is not alcohol. You don’t even.
Shoshana Walter: Right.
Jessica Dueñas: alcohol. And that was really frustrating for me to see, because I remember being in the facility and seeing people who use street drugs being told to go to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Shoshana Walter: It didn’t…
Jessica Dueñas: sense to me, and I don’t know if there’s anything that you’ve read or anything that you’ve seen to make sense of, like, that kind of a recommendation from a facility, or, like, where’s that coming from? I’m curious.
Shoshana Walter: Yeah. I mean, I think there is a huge reliance in a lot of treatment facilities on 12-step curriculum.
Shoshana Walter: And one of the reasons that is, is because in the 70s, there was a hospital chain that provided inpatient hospitalization for alcoholism.
Shoshana Walter: And, that… that facility had psychiatrists and doctors on staff, well…
Shoshana Walter: at one point, they decided they needed to cut costs, and so they got rid of a lot of those, you know, higher-paid, highly qualified staff members, and replaced them with people with lived experience, which is not necessarily a bad thing, and people who were essentially evangelizing the 12 steps. And so…
Shoshana Walter: That is kind of how the 12 steps became introduced into a lot of treatment facilities, is simply, initially, as a way to cut costs.
Shoshana Walter: And so, now a lot of treatment facilities utilize the 12 steps, and I think the evidence shows that that can be very effective for some people, but not for all people. You know, most people benefit from some sort of community recovery support group.
Shoshana Walter: But it’s not always going to be AA, and I think in a lot of cases, it actually, can make people feel,
Shoshana Walter: alienated to join when they join a group that doesn’t… that is not the right fit for them. And that’s what I found in reporting my book, Rehab in American Scandal. You know, there’s one person in my book, April Lee, who did find
Shoshana Walter: great benefits in joining 12-step groups, in her recovery. But there was another person, Chris Coon, who got back from a very dramatic experience in an exploitative rehab program, and he did not want to join.
Shoshana Walter: a 12-step group. He did not want to identify himself as… a forever addict, as,
Shoshana Walter: As, and he didn’t… and he didn’t want to just hold on to kind of this…
Shoshana Walter: this, sense of himself as addiction being a core piece of his identity. You know, he really just wanted to move on, and he was able to, thankfully, because he had recovery capital, he had a middle-class
Shoshana Walter: households. His parents helped him get on Suboxone.
Shoshana Walter: They helped support him with housing as he attended school to get a welding certificate. He was able to get a job. He applied for a number of jobs that actually rejected him because he was on Suboxone, but he eventually did find a job that allowed him to support himself.
Shoshana Walter: And he was able to move on with his life. So I think there are different pathways for different people, and that is one of the most… that is one of the scariest pieces of recovery, especially early recovery, is when the stakes are so high.
Shoshana Walter: Particularly with opioid addiction, when it can lead to overdose, you know, how do you find the type of support that’s going to work for you?
Shoshana Walter: And I think that’s why it’s incredibly important when you’re in a treatment facility that that facility help you identify what is going to be the right fit for you. How do you find that support? What makes the most sense for you personally as an individual versus…
Shoshana Walter: What makes the most sense for… You know, billable services.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And you know, that’s…
Jessica Dueñas: That’s so incredibly powerful, and I do see how that does not happen, you know, because I think about whether it was, you know, when I was in the facility, how I was thinking, or again, seeing my peers who were addicted to opiates and other substances. When we’re in those spaces, and we’re, like, on day zero or day one.
Jessica Dueñas: the… we’re the farthest from trusting ourselves, right? And so, I feel like we’re in that space where we’re almost ready to just do as we’re told, as opposed to looking inwardly to be like, huh.
Jessica Dueñas: what feels right for me? What would be the pathway that feels most beneficial to us? And sometimes, when I think about, like, the guest speakers who would come into these facilities with their many years of lived experience, some of them are very intimidating, and some of them are just like, sit down, shut up, you know.
Shoshana Walter: Oh my goodness.
Jessica Dueñas: Cotton out your ears and put it in your mouth, and, you know, just do as you’re told.
Jessica Dueñas: And when some of that is the messaging that we’re receiving early on when we’re in these facilities and, you know, people are going through their different types of withdrawal from whatever they’re coming off of, it… it can be really hard to be told, like, look inwardly and trust, like, let’s help you find what works for you. So I can see.
Shoshana Walter: Yes.
Jessica Dueñas: exactly how people can find themselves being exploited, which I know that’s some of what you discuss in your book.
Shoshana Walter: Yes, yeah, what you just described just so resonates, because I talked with so many people who, for my book, who attended some of these exploitative rehab programs.
Shoshana Walter: that we’re really using people to make a profit. And that is exactly the situation that so many of them found themselves in. You know, it’s such a vulnerable moment in so many people’s lives.
Shoshana Walter: They feel depressed, like, the self-worth is so low, they lack confidence and, and trust in their own instincts.
Shoshana Walter: And so… and then you enter a program that is incredibly prescriptive. You’re being told exactly what you just said. You can’t trust your own instincts. Your family members are being told. Don’t trust anything that they say.
Shoshana Walter: So you’re completely isolated, and so that’s how, you know, Chris Kuhn, for example, ended up in this…
Shoshana Walter: treatment program where he was supposed to live and work for 2 years. He was told he would be able to save up money for after he left rehab, that he would get counseling and medical care. And instead, what he discovered when he got to this facility is that he’d be working up to 80 hours per week
Shoshana Walter: And really, Hard, manual labor jobs, you know.
Shoshana Walter: building scaffolding at chemical plants, laying asphalt in broiling Louisiana heat, cleaning up after LSU football games, and he wasn’t getting paid. All of the money that he was earning was going back to the rehab program. He was getting a pack of cigarettes per week as his compensation.
Shoshana Walter: And he barely ever had any time for counseling. You know, I spoke with his counselor, who said that she would poke her head into his room at the end of a long workday.
Shoshana Walter: ask him how he was doing, he’d say fine, and she’d mark that off as a counseling session. So, you know, you can really see how easily this population of people can be exploited, and no one
Shoshana Walter: Almost no one believes it, because your family’s being told not to listen to you.
Shoshana Walter: You know, whoever put you there, maybe it’s a judge or a prosecutor, believes you deserve what you’re getting.
Shoshana Walter: And there’s kind of a lack of trust of the experience of the person who’s going through this. And, it can be really devastating, and there is really so much exploitation in this industry, it’s very disturbing.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I know you’ve made mention of a couple of ways in which people are exploited financially. Did you find any evidence of other ways in which people are taking advantage of when they’re in these facilities?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah,
Shoshana Walter: I found… so there’s a lot of problems with oversight in… with treatment facilities. You know, every state regulates these systems differently. In a lot of states, there are certain programs and facilities that are totally exempt from licensure.
Shoshana Walter: So, and oversight, so you have programs that identify themselves as faith-based, that are typically exempt from licensure and oversight.
Shoshana Walter: Oftentimes, if a program is, 12-step based, and not offering medical care, and not allowing
Shoshana Walter: medications of any kind, even psychiatric medications, they’re exempt from licensure. And then you have sober living homes that also are not typically regulated. And in California, for example, outpatient programs are not required to be licensed or certified.
Shoshana Walter: So, there are a lot of gaps in oversight in this system.
Shoshana Walter: And, and so I found that there were often, there was often exploitation happening in these programs that lacked any kind of oversight. So, for example, April, one of the people that I, that I followed in my book.
Shoshana Walter: You know, when she was struggling with addiction, she couldn’t find treatment, her children were taken away from her.
Shoshana Walter: She ended up, going to this 30-day program. Immediately afterwards, she relapsed, and she had nowhere to go, and so she ended up at this, recovery home.
Shoshana Walter: That required her to… to pray.
Shoshana Walter: That was essentially what she was allowed to do in this program. And, she was allowed to take her detox medications, but one day, when they discovered her taking them a little bit early, they punished her by forcing her to sit in a corner on her knees and pray for 4 hours straight.
Shoshana Walter: And so, as you can imagine, that led April to want to leave, and she did. She fled the program. She ended up homeless in Kensington, in Philadelphia, where she really devol- got worse in her addiction.
Shoshana Walter: She, she’s started relying on sex work to support herself.
Shoshana Walter: And she was desperate to stop, you know? She desperately wanted to be reunited with her kids, and she could not find any help. The only help that she could find, in her view, was to get herself arrested.
Shoshana Walter: So that’s what she did in order to stop her cycle of addiction. She got herself arrested, she entered jail.
Shoshana Walter: And then that was the start of her recovery process, which took a very long time, because April grew up in poverty and really lacked that recovery capital that we were talking about earlier.
Shoshana Walter: And then there’s another person that I follow in my book named Wendy McIntyre. She is… she became kind of an activist, obsessively rooting out corruption in the for-profit treatment industry.
Shoshana Walter: after she lost her son to overdose when he was in a sober living home. And, Wendy, you know, when I met Wendy.
Shoshana Walter: I learned that she basically investigates rehabs in her spare time, and she is so, persistent and aggressive in this pursuit. The first time I met her, I…
Shoshana Walter: entered her house, and the floor was basically carpeted in boxes of her investigations. I mean, she is, relentless. And so one of the programs that Wendy investigated was located in the San Bernardino Mountains, not far from her own home.
Shoshana Walter: And, it was one of these short-term residential programs. And what Wendy discovered is that this program was…
Shoshana Walter: Over-medicating people, often to the point of impairment, basically giving everyone the same
Shoshana Walter: a mixture of detox medications, even when it wasn’t appropriate for them. You know, for example, giving someone Suboxone who had a meth addiction. You know, there was no reason for them to be on that medication. And in multiple instances, people died after receiving these cocktail of meds.
Shoshana Walter: That were not appropriate for them, and that the record showed had not actually been prescribed to them by a doctor. And, Wendy…
Shoshana Walter: tried so hard to get this facility shut down. I mean, she filed hundreds of complaints.
Shoshana Walter: Called law enforcement and regulators constantly. The rehab filed a restraining order against her, and filed a libel lawsuit against her to get her to stop what she was doing, and she didn’t.
Shoshana Walter: And nonetheless, people continue to die, and…
Shoshana Walter: No legal authorities ever made a substantial effort to shut this facility down. The only reason it eventually shut down is because the owner went into debt after a series of wrongful death lawsuits.
Shoshana Walter: And he was making a lot of money through this program for many years. I mean, he got into it because he had been in construction, he had a bunch of empty homes that were not being put to use, and despite having no training or background with addiction.
Shoshana Walter: He decided to start this treatment facility because it was a moneymaker.
Shoshana Walter: And it… it led to people dying due to the inadequate care.
Jessica Dueñas: Oh my goodness, I mean, it’s… it’s terrifying, and again, I hate to say that it’s not shocking that it was very… like, that she wasn’t able to get it shut down, that it took the owner self-shutting down because of debt. I mean, I think a big part of it, Shoshana, is that
Jessica Dueñas: though there’s been lots of strides in how addiction is viewed, and, you know, I’ve seen some of your interviews in other spaces where you’ve said that, you know, like, in the 80s.
Jessica Dueñas: you know, drug addiction was certainly criminalized, right? When you had predominantly Black and brown bodies that were struggling with the addiction, and then with the transition to opiate addiction, you know, now it’s like, oh no, this is a disease, we need to, like, treat it, we need to care for these folks, right?
Jessica Dueñas: But I still think at the end of the day, there’s a huge stigma, and I think that, you know, there’s still this, like, lesser-than view of the person who is struggling with an addiction, especially if it’s anything that is, like, taken off of the street, right? Because I still think, like, sometimes people who struggle with alcohol abuse, you know, there’s…
Jessica Dueñas: it’s just, people are treated so differently, and I feel like sometimes people really don’t care, and they don’t see the human who’s struggling
Jessica Dueñas: behind the addiction, and so, well, if… if there’s some casualties, I can see that attitude being of, like, oh, well, you know, we’ve got other things to worry about. Right. So that… that is incredibly heartbreaking.
Jessica Dueñas: So, as you’ve been, like, looking through these, doing your research, and investigating.
Jessica Dueñas: Have you found any kind of programs that you feel are somewhat effective? Like, let’s say if you had a loved one, or a friend with a loved one struggling, and they needed help, what would you suggest, considering how broken so many of these spaces are?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of shadowing of providers when I was working on my book,
Shoshana Walter: to really get a sense for what addiction treatment looks like, especially when it’s really helping people. And so one of the programs that I, that I shadowed for several months
Shoshana Walter: It’s called the Bridge Clinic. It’s at, it’s at a hospital here in Oakland, California, where I’m based.
Shoshana Walter: And, it predominantly focuses on treating patients who are more marginalized and often unhoused. And, and I saw, and it’s a low-barrier clinic, meaning,
Shoshana Walter: anyone can come and get treatment. There’s no… there’s no wait, you don’t even have to set up an appointment, you can just show up.
Shoshana Walter: And… and if you’re still using, or you relapse during the course of your time in the clinic.
Shoshana Walter: you can still remain a patient. I mean, that’s a very common problem in treatment, too, is someone relapses while in treatment, they’re kicked out.
Shoshana Walter: So in this clinic, people are allowed to remain in care. And so they’re… and so they can show up at the clinic anytime for an appointment. They don’t need to make an appointment, they can just
Shoshana Walter: come and see a doctor, and they get medical care, they get addiction treatment medications, and they also get counseling. There’s a counselor there, a social worker there, who helps people work through some of these other issues that are going on in their lives.
Shoshana Walter: And I just saw… In real time, how beneficial that was.
Shoshana Walter: To some of these patients. I mean, I remember one patient in particular who was in his 60s, he’d been struggling with addiction for decades, he’d been homeless for a very long time, and he decided to…
Shoshana Walter: Start his recovery process when he realized that he had turned the same age that his own dad had been when he died from his addiction.
Shoshana Walter: And so, he started going to this clinic, and he didn’t even have to go in person, but he wanted to. And it’s kind of a haul to get to this place, and he would just walk there.
Shoshana Walter: to go to the clinic. He would pick flowers from people’s front yards along the way, and then by the time he got to the clinic, he would have, like, a bouquet of flowers that he would present to the receptionist.
Shoshana Walter: And, and even though he still struggled intermittently with using, I could see how much better it was for him to be on this medication, have access to these resources.
Shoshana Walter: And because that prevented him from… from dying from his addiction. It kept him in better health, and it allowed him to make ongoing improvements and changes in his life. And it was a lifeline to…
Shoshana Walter: a phone that he could use to call people he needed to, to medical care to address the other physical ailments that were going on in his body. The one thing that I will say about this program is, even though it was so beneficial to the patients from what I could see.
Shoshana Walter: There was still a limitation to what healthcare providers could provide, you know? There’s a housing, shortage in the Bay Area, and so the social worker, you know.
Shoshana Walter: was unable to find, housing for him. So, even though he was attending this program in the long term, he was still unhoused, and that had an effect on his stability and had an impact on his addiction. And so, I think when I…
Shoshana Walter: when I think about our larger treatment system.
Shoshana Walter: I think a lot about the fact that there are limitations to our healthcare system in being able to provide the resources that people need in order to
Shoshana Walter: actually sustain their recovery. And so that’s a broader problem, I think, for our society to really address and solve. It’s not something that
Shoshana Walter: It’s gonna be solved with just our healthcare system alone.
Jessica Dueñas: Sure, I mean, you know, I think of, like, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right? And it’s just, like, just the basic safety, housing, you know.
Shoshana Walter: Yes, the basics.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, like, if we don’t have those basics, it’s going to be really hard to stay sober, to stay clean.
Shoshana Walter: Exactly.
Shoshana Walter: Exactly, Jessica.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, so…
Jessica Dueñas: So, I mean, this is fascinating. This is a fascinating and heartbreaking conversation, and again, for anyone listening.
Jessica Dueñas: I just hope that it helps us just make better decisions in terms of the care that we are seeking. So, what might be some red flags that families might need to look for if they’re looking to either… if someone’s looking to place themselves in a facility, or a loved one that needs to go into a facility, what are some things that you would recommend people pay attention to before, you know, as they’re looking
Jessica Dueñas: For maybe an intake interview, etc.
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, I would want to know what are the qualifications of the people who work at that program? You know, if… is the program…
Shoshana Walter: providing not just, care for addiction via, you know, groups, but are they also providing access to medical care, to addiction treatment medications, and to mental health care, to psychiatric care? You know, if someone needs medication, for example, for a mental health condition.
Shoshana Walter: Will they be able to also address that in the program?
Shoshana Walter: I would ask about what,
Shoshana Walter: what are the common features of the program on a daily basis. I think one big red flag for me with any program would be how often are they drug testing participants? I think drug testing can be a very valuable tool.
Shoshana Walter: But if the program is drug testing people every day or every other day, that’s not necessary, and it’s excessive, and it may be a sign that that program
Shoshana Walter: is, is providing unnecessary services in order to bill insurance companies for more money. I’d also ask, you know, what does the program’s approach to aftercare look like?
Shoshana Walter: How do they involve the family?
Shoshana Walter: And how do they work with the patient to determine what the next step should be following treatment? How do they help guide that patient through the process of identifying
Shoshana Walter: The supports that they need following treatment, and what kind of resources they might need to access in order to support themselves following treatment.
Shoshana Walter: There was one program, this is the one that I was telling you about earlier, that had been over-medicating patients.
Shoshana Walter: you know, I spoke with this treatment facility owner, and he… he actually was frustrated by the insurance companies covering such short bursts of treatment, because he… even he acknowledged that…
Shoshana Walter: it can be, counterproductive. He referred to it as a cycler, like, people go into the program, they come out, they relapse, and then they come back in. And he was criticizing this, but at the same time, he is among many other treatment programs that have now made this kind of a part of their business model, where, like, the relapse is a part
Shoshana Walter: of… Of ensuring a…
Shoshana Walter: steady customer base, for lack of a better term. And so he employed people in his quote-unquote aftercare program.
Shoshana Walter: who would call former patients, find out if they relapsed, and then re-enroll them if they did. And so I think if that is what a rehab is considering their aftercare program.
Shoshana Walter: that’s likely going to be insufficient for patients, and so I would, if I were looking for a treatment program, I would try to determine how robust that… that aftercare program is, actually. You know, what are they actually doing for patients once they leave?
Jessica Dueñas: And, you know, the relapse thing, it’s fascinating to hear you say that, that they call and are just like, hey, do you want to come back? Because at the end of the day, when someone is discharged, they do…
Jessica Dueñas: a big part of being in recovery is learning how to live in the world, right? And, you know, if a person… obviously with opiates, right, the problem with the relapse there is that it can be deadly. With alcohol, not always, unless, you know, someone
Jessica Dueñas: goes overboard or gets into a car, hurts themself, etc. But there are times when the person uses a substance again, whatever it is. It’s also a learning opportunity, where we can talk about, well, what set you off, what triggered you?
Jessica Dueñas: how can you adjust your environment? Like, how can you… you know, there’s, like, this whole, like, relapse prevention education that can happen that does not necessarily need to happen behind the walls of a treatment facility where you’re charging someone thousands of dollars a day, right? But if they look at that moment, like, oh, you used again, time to go back in, and, like, let’s start this all over again, you really are perpetuating a cycle where someone’s not learning and not growing.
Jessica Dueñas: In their journey, honestly.
Shoshana Walter: Totally, Jessica, I think that’s such a good point. Like, that’s information that is really valuable to have once you’re out in the world, and I think that is the time to really
Shoshana Walter: to really focus on that challenge. And it’s where… it’s the time period in which people need the most support. Not when they’re in the confines of this program, but when they’re out of the program and surrounded by all the triggers that accompany, you know.
Shoshana Walter: The recovery process.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. So, Shoshana, with your text, when people pick it up, whether it’s someone who is just a casual reader, someone in recovery, or maybe a practitioner, or even a policymaker.
Jessica Dueñas: What do you hope people will maybe do differently after they engage with your book? It sounds like it’s full of individual people’s stories, as well as patterns that you’ve noticed that are occurring on a systemic level. What do you hope people do differently with that information?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, well…
Shoshana Walter: it really depends on who’s reading it. You know, I… for the book, which is called Rehab and American Scandal, I followed four different people very closely through different facets of our treatment system.
Shoshana Walter: And, I did that because I feel like, in order to really understand the system and the problems that people, confront.
Shoshana Walter: you really have to view it through the eyes of someone who’s experienced it. I think stories are really powerful. So I hope that people, that policymakers and lawmakers who might read it
Shoshana Walter: Read the book and understand for the first time, perhaps, that this system that our country has set up to, help stop this drug crisis is really not working the way it was intended to work.
Shoshana Walter: And there need to be some significant changes in order for it to actually help more people. I hope that, people struggling with addiction and their family members read it and, and, maybe feel validated or seen.
Shoshana Walter: because… and I’ve heard from so many families since the book came out who’ve… who do feel like it really, accurately reflects their own experiences, and so often those experiences are totally ignored by the authorities. And so, I hope that people read this and feel…
Shoshana Walter: Heard and seen, and perhaps empowered to speak up about their own experiences.
Shoshana Walter: And I also… this was not necessarily my initial thinking behind
Shoshana Walter: putting out these books, but since the book came out, I’ve also heard from a lot of treatment practitioners. I think there are a lot of people working in the treatment industry who want to see the system improve.
Shoshana Walter: And so there’s been a lot of really hopeful, what I view as hopeful conversation going on around the book, and around changes that, this industry can make to really help people. And so, I hope that that is another piece of impact that occurs, is…
Shoshana Walter: Just, treatment facilities, looking for ways to improve.
Shoshana Walter: The programs that they have, and also perhaps putting a little more pressure on insurance companies to change how treatment is incentivized.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. When you speak about the insurance companies, I also always remember, having to turn in attendance sheets in order… there was one program that I was in that I had to turn in attendance sheets for attending 12-step program meetings in person, and that was the only way that, like, insurance was going to continue my… this was an outpatient program that I was approved for. But if I didn’t go, like, let’s say if I would have been like.
Shoshana Walter: to explore another community, that was not going to be an option, and so I would have been so limited in what I could have done at that time. Wow.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Shoshana Walter: That’s… yeah, that’s it in a nutshell, right, Jessica? Like, maybe that wasn’t the right community for you, and it sounds like that’s not where you found the most support, right? And so…
Shoshana Walter: that really limited your options. I mean, I’m sure it would have been helpful to maybe try out a different group at that time.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Oh, well, I mean, Shoshana, I want to thank you so much for joining me today, and again, just so much for this powerful work that you’re doing. Again, I… having witnessed it myself, there are definitely…
Jessica Dueñas: many, many areas of growth in the treatment system that exists today, and I’m just so grateful that people like you are shining the light on this, for sure. Now, can you tell us more about how people can find you, how people can find your book, when it is out, if it’s not out already, all those great details?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, yes. I have a website, ShoshanaWalter.com, where you can find all…
Shoshana Walter: different ways to contact me, but I’m also on Instagram at Walt Show, S-H-O, and LinkedIn, under my name, Shoshana Walter, and Facebook.
Shoshana Walter: And yes, the book is out now, it’s called Rehab, an American Scandal. You can find it wherever you buy your books, AmazonBookshop.org, or your local bookseller. And thank you so much for having me, Jessica. I really appreciate it. It’s such a pleasure.
Jessica Dueñas: Yes, thank you, thank you so much.
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