In this episode:
I dive into a heartfelt exploration of the complex dance of forgiveness, boundary-setting, and finding community that accompanies recovery with fellow sober traveler Dana White-Guerrie, owner of the Yarn Consolery LLC. We highlight how forgiveness sometimes involves crafting the space we need to heal rather than rekindling harmful ties. Listen in to learn about where we go to heal when we need to distance ourselves from those who hurt us.
Resources:
Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Writing Classes, and Workshops
Transcript:
00:05 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Hey, everyone, on today’s episode I have a guest. I have Dana White-Guerrie and she is the owner of the Yarn Consollery LLC and really for today, we’re just going to have a candid conversation. Dana’s got some questions for me, actually, and we figured why not go ahead and have an opportunity to sit chat? I can answer questions about sobriety in life in general, and then we’ll go ahead and make it into an episode. So, hey, dana, so nice to have you.
00:45 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
I think I told you I found you or saw you on the sober summit with Maggie and I was drawn to you. I told you this I was drawn to you just because you were so forthright. You had a no BS attitude and the thing that really struck me is you didn’t really sugar coat forgiveness and the need for forgiving others to bring your sobriety to the forefront. So that’s a lot of what I wanted to talk to you about. I know you’ve talked about forgiving yourself, but I love your stance on kind of how do we forgive others, or is it necessary or kind of moving on from the past to really live a life of recovery?
01:35 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I love that you bring that up, because I would say that definitely my stance on forgiveness it’s. I definitely am not a forgive and forget type of person, and what I mean by that is that I will not continue to put energy into something that caused me pain that another person did to me. However, I’m going to absolutely make the decision, if I choose to, to go no contact with that person, and an example of that would be I have a brother on my mother’s side. I mean, he’s probably about 17 years, my senior, and so we did not have the opportunity to grow up together. So you know, by the time I was born, I think he was on his way out to the military, and so we just never were together.
02:18
But what I did find was that he was placing these expectations on me for how I should be as a sister, and because, again, he’s 17 years older than me, I kind of just automatically throughout my life assumed that whatever he was expecting was the right thing for him to expect. And then you know later on him and his wife and it took me getting sober and getting clarity of mind that I didn’t want to be told how to show up for another person for me to finally be like. You know what I’m going to just end this entire relationship. And so you know, like my mother’s aware, my siblings are aware that I’ve made the decision to go no contact with him, and I realized that I just didn’t want to be told how to show up for other people like I really wanted to determine that myself.
03:04 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So I guess my question for you there is how do you handle almost the peer pressure of what do they call them, the flying monkeys, right, the people that are sent, you know other family members that are sent to tell you to forgive. You know that if we don’t forgive someone else, it’s like drinking poison and wishing, you know, someone else to die. How do you, how do you kind of come in, come to peace, more so, with holding your ground, not giving in to kind of the peer family peer pressure to forgive someone because that’s just how they are, or you know that was 10 years ago or they’re. They’ve changed now. How do you kind of get your mind around that?
03:51 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
That’s a great question. So I’ve got to say I’m pretty fortunate that my family there’s many of us who are siblings, and nobody has pressured me to maintain a relationship with him. And I think that, at the end of the day, everyone knows how bad things got for me in terms of my drinking and if this is what’s working for me and my sobriety, I think it’s pretty clear. We’re not questioning whatever’s keeping Jessica sober, and if she’s making this decision to keep herself sober, then it is what it is. Other things that I am mindful of you know I do my best to say not complicate family situations. So since my decision to go no contact with him.
04:26
I’ve only had to see him one time and it was very simple. I was very cordial, you know. I saw him and his wife and I said, hey, how are you? And that was it. And I just went to another part of the room. It was like a family get together and I just did not engage with them. So I had to be in the same space. My mom was there. I had not seen my mother in over a year, so it was an opportunity to see my mother as well. But I just pretty simply I said hello and then I kept it going. You know, I wasn’t going to get into an argument.
04:53
I, if they had approached me with any type of conversation about the past, I was not going to have that conversation, and I still won’t, because I’m pretty firm in my decision.
05:03
You know, when we make certain decisions, right, it really helps us to look at our future self. And so if me in 70 years or maybe not, so I don’t know that I’d be around in 70 years, if I’m when I’m 70 or when I’m 80, would I look back at this decision and regret it? And my 80 year old version does not. My 80 year old version is firmly okay with still being no contact with this individual, and so that’s what I use to kind of anchor myself in a decision. That can be a tough decision, absolutely, but I know that future me won’t regret it. And you know and I’ve run the gambit of possible scenarios, right, because when we decide to go no contact with the family member you know we’re essentially saying that if one day we needed help, we are letting ourselves know that that person is not an option for help. Right, I’m giving myself permission to understand that I’m cutting off a possible source of help in the future and I’m okay with that because I’m that resolute with my decision.
05:58 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
And I love. I love that because that was sort of the major things that resonated with me. As you said, you know, a lot of people this day and age are talking about inner child, this inner child that you know, work with our past selves. But you said, really, you know, looking forward to that older person, what am I doing to ensure that they have a good life?
06:16
And I guess that kind of leads me to wonder this might be more of an existentialist question, but how do you know if someone’s changed? I mean, maybe they’re, maybe their words have said they’ve changed, but even if their actions are changed, like how many chances do you give someone right? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Or you know I don’t want people to hold me to all the, you know, hard things I did when I was using you know. So I want to. You know I want people to forgive me. Of course, hand over fist, but I have a hard time forgiving others. And so how do you know? How do you kind of determine when you give a second chance, third chance, or if they’ve changed? Or is that more of like a gut feeling for you?
07:00 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Are you more logical or I think I’ve definitely become more logical. I think the more sobering and the more logical I get, and so I think everyone ultimately has to make that decision for themselves. Right? When I’m working with a client one on one, I’m never going to tell someone you need to let this go, versus you need to, like, hold on to this, etc. But what I ask myself, or would ask another person, is are you okay with this happening again to you? Right? So, because again, someone can change and work.
07:29
People and humans backtrack sometimes. Right, it’s human nature to be imperfect, so are you okay with whatever that imperfection was to happen to you again? If you are by all means like, let this person back in your life, right, if you know fully well that you can handle whatever disappointment it was that this person brought to you. However, if you know that your nervous system could barely tolerate that event and you know that it’s just something you wouldn’t want to deal with ever again, then this is where you let that person change and evolve and show someone else how great they are now. Right, like, you don’t have to be the recipient of this person’s new version of themselves. They can absolutely be their new self and give that to someone else, right, whether it’s a romantic relationship, a family member, a friend, you, it’s totally up to you. But I that’s kind of like my question that I used to measure that am I okay with this happening again? If I can handle it happening again, sure, let them back in. If not, they can go exist somewhere else.
08:28 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So what do you think of the phrase? You know, if someone shows you who they are, believe them.
08:34 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
I think that it’s it’s a great phrase and I think it’s a very true and spot on these right, and I think that a lot of times we we want to see the good and other people right, and sometimes we have those rose colored glasses and sometimes we’re attracted to red flags, right, Like sometimes somebody who screams drama and chaos seems reassuring to us because that’s all we’ve ever known Exactly. However, I do think that, yeah, like when someone shows you by their actions what they mean, what their intentions are with you, if you choose to ignore it again, don’t be surprised when the following things happen that you know, perfectly aligned with exactly what they showed you. And then again, you, you can make that decision. Do you want this to continue, yes or no? And if you don’t, then you have to make a decision in terms of keeping this person in your life or not.
09:24 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So this if I, and if I start to go too far out there, you know, bring me back down. But what about your idea on almost like ancestral wounds, you know, do we pay the price? This you know, as children of you know parents, or you know grandparents or great grandparents who had issues in the past. Do you think we pay the price for them? Or I mean, maybe that’s a karma kind of question, you know, and maybe that’s, you know, the trauma factor. How do we move on from those kind of ancestral wounds?
10:02 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I would say I don’t know that. I would say that it’s karmic in that we automatically like it’s something like a debt to pay, right, like that. It’s a tit for tat sort of thing, like our parents, this. So now we deal with this. But what I do think happens is that these are learned behaviors, right. So if our grandparents went through something, they learned how to survive it a certain way, whatever, whether it was some sort of system of oppression at the time, any specific type of laws, any specific you know, depending on their identity and where they lived, right, like it could have been a straight up like surviving genocide, whatever the case may be right.
10:37
That definitely imprints itself on folks and if anyone, researches, say epigenetics, we do understand that we do carry the trauma of those before us.
10:46
At the same time, we, with like tools that we have, you know we’re definitely and as a generation, like anybody who is alive right now, in 2024, what we’re very fortunate for is that there are a lot of resources and there is a lot of understanding and there are a lot of conversations about personal development and taking care of yourself, because I think, for example, my mother’s generation, they never would have had conversations about, like reflecting on your behaviors and thinking about where your emotions are coming from and what your emotions mean and how something that happened to your ancestor may be impacting you today, right, so my mom really didn’t have a lot of tools to help her with her excuse me, with her behavior, so to speak, and her mindset and her thoughts and her emotions. I, on the other hand, can go online. You know, there’s tons of resources online. There’s tons of books to read, there’s lots of safe spaces that are being created to facilitate these conversations about our emotions, our state of well-being, the things we’ve gone through, so that we can actually empower ourselves to break the learned behaviors that the people before us had to use to survive, so we don’t have to operate in the exact same manner.
11:55 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So do you think where do you stand on, feeling as though you almost need to go back and educate people who have wronged you, like maybe your brother, you know, or your mother, or you know, whoever we have in our life that you know isn’t as elevated, or have that you know, consciousness that we have now? Do you feel, I mean not that it’s our job to teach them, you know, I don’t need to teach a grown, grown ass woman how to behave, you know. But at the same extent, how do we kind of educate others? Or is it kind of like, hey, that’s you, you’ve done your thing and I educate, going forward to like my children?
12:37 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I mean I don’t, it’s not my place. You know, if my brother were to ever be curious and want to have a conversation about it, we can have the conversation about it. But you know, everyone is walking through life through their own lens and their own perspective. So I’m sure he thinks I’ve done a million things wrong. Right, and it’s not my job to convince him that. You know, his perspective is one way and my perspective is another. I just know, in my reality I did not want to be told how to show up in this relationship and so I removed myself from the relationship so that way there was no more drama about being told that I’m doing the right or wrong thing. You know, whatever he thinks is going to be, whatever he thinks, all I can do is just show up authentically.
13:16
And then, yeah, in terms of educate, right, there’s opportunities conversations, just like on this podcast, that anybody can sit and listen and kind of have opportunities to reflect. When I’m facilitating meetings, right, I work with the luckiest club. I previously worked also with the reframe app, you know. When I’m having conversations with people in recovery who are reflecting on their own journeys, right, these are the opportunities that I have to kind of share my perspective on, say, forgiveness and interacting with other people who have hurt us, or choosing not to interact with other people who have hurt us. And then if I were to have a kid, of course, you know, I would definitely pass this on to my children, right, and give them the option of knowing that they don’t have to be forced into any relationship that they don’t want to be in, you know. But yeah, I don’t. I don’t believe that it’s my job to go teach other adults how to, how to live and how to think and how to act.
14:07 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
I’m making all these notes over here as you’re telling me this. I’m like note to self what about? And then maybe this is switching gears a little bit how are you when you’re working with a client, how do you work on like the forgiveness of self? So maybe we can forgive people because they did the best with what they had at the time or you know, that’s all they knew. Like you said, your mother wasn’t equipped, she didn’t have the tools you have, that she did the best she could. How do you kind of decide how to forgive yourself? You know I can be hard, you know, hard nailed to not forgive her. I have a brother to that. I have some strange relations with. You know I can, I can definitely keep distance between us. But how do you kind of determine? You know forgiveness in yourself, how do you, how do you work with that?
14:55 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, that’s a great question. So when I work with clients one on one, you know, first it’s kind of like defining just some basic terms, right, and it’s like I feel like the big one is what is guilt versus what is shame? Right, and I think Brené Brown does a really great job of explaining that like. I think she says something along the lines of shame is a focus on ourselves, right, that we think we are bad and we think we are not worthy because of whatever it is that we did that we regret having done, versus guilt. That’s not personal to ourselves. We can feel guilt for having done something that is wrong, quote unquote but even then, diving in deeper, like, let’s say, if someone is feeling guilt right and they’re they’re like, well, I feel bad about having done something wrong Then the question goes deeper into well, what do you define as right or wrong? Because you know, for ages, you know society will say something is right or wrong that is actually wrong, but then it’s legal, right, like segregation was totally legal, but we know it’s wrong, right. And so when folks are managing guilt and shame towards themselves, it’s like we have to kind of peel back the layers and go back to what do you believe is right or wrong for you? Right, because when you are feeling guilt about something, first I want to make sure that the person is feeling guilt about something that actually is out of alignment with their values, and then that’s fair, like, okay, if you, if you feel guilty because you took money from your mother to, you know, go buy alcohol, right, like you pickpocket at your mom or whatever, and it is not in your values to take other people’s belongings, then absolutely that makes sense, that you should be feeling guilt for that, right. And so now let’s go to let’s, let’s peel back those layers.
16:33
But some people feel guilt or shame over, say, their body size. Right, like their, their body is not a small body and then they’re feeling guilt and shame about their weight and it’s like, okay, where did you learn that there was something wrong with your, your weight? Is this actually in your true value system or is this something that was adopted and absorbed from outside sources? So we have those conversations to really determine if you are feeling badly because of something that you actually did wrong, according to what is your internal measure of right or wrong, or if it comes from an outside source. So once we know if it’s coming from an outside source, then it’s like alright, let’s, let’s tap into what do you really believe, and usually coming into what someone actually believes is right or wrong can help a lot.
17:21
It doesn’t happen overnight, because nothing ever happens overnight, but just recognizing that if you start to feel bad because you’re a couple extra pounds higher than what you think you quote unquote should be examining where that belief comes from, can really help alleviate some of that emotional like discomfort that you feel when you like step on a scale because you’re like oh wait, I’m worried about that because this is something that I was taught but I don’t really like. For me, there’s nothing actually wrong with being the body, in the body that I am in today. So that’s a lot of the work that I would do in terms of like the self, the self forgiveness piece, right. And then I think also it really helps like providing clients with resources in terms of like connecting what your feelings are telling us so, for example, like when they are experiencing, you know, shame. Again, bernay Brown is a great resource on like shame and shame resilience and really that when we’re feeling shame about something, the greatest way to break down shame is to actually talk about it, right.
18:19
And then the question is well, where do we talk about these things? Again, when it’s specific to alcohol abuse, right, especially with alcohol addiction, you know where can you talk about your drinking so that you feel safe and you feel seen. So typically it’ll be. I’ll refer people to different communities where they can go in a meeting and share, right, I mean talking to like a coach helps, but maybe they’re not ready to put it on their social media. Totally fair, not, that’s not a requirement, but you’ve got to talk to someone about it. So who are you going to talk to about it, where you can be safe in that experience? Like massive consequences for talking about whatever you’re ashamed of? So things like that are really how we target, say, self forgiveness work. I love it.
19:00 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So what about You’re saying have someone speak to other people about it definitely working with a coach, but what would you say about, as far as someone, the difference between speaking to like a therapist or a psychologist, versus a community? Because I work with a lot of people and they say, well, I already have a therapist, I’m good, I don’t need to go to meetings, and so I think maybe differentiating between the two. A therapist is good, a coach is good, but what makes having a community so much more impactful than just going to your therapist? I mean, you pay them to listen to you, technically right, so that’s a bias there, and maybe they don’t have what you have, maybe they’re not an addict, so maybe there’s a difference there. A coach again maybe there’s a hierarchy. What does the community aspect do? Or how could you even convince? Not convince, but how could you encourage someone to go to a group and share? Because that’s a hard thing to do.
20:01 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, excuse me this cough. It really is a hard thing to do to show up in a community and tell all these people, right, like that, you have been struggling. The way that I get folks to go is just that reminder that their shame is fueled by their isolation. And I basically break down the fact that if you are struggling with an addiction, we talk about it. How are you drinking?
20:25
Most of the time, most of my clients are drinking in secret. They might drink a little bit socially, and then they wait to come home and drink more. They wait till their kids go to bed and then they drink. Right, they wait till their kids go to school and then they drink. Like there’s always this part that’s hidden, and what I let them know is that they deserve to be seen, and the best place to be seen is in a community where you have peers who are going through the exact same thing as you.
20:52
Because, for example all right, let me slow my breath down, okay, for anybody who’s listening I’ve had this weird cough and it’s just been really annoying and life goes on. But because here’s the thing, when you’re working one-on-one with someone again, you made a reference to the hierarchy you have the therapist, you have the coach, and even if the coach is still someone in recovery. The point is, there is this implied hierarchy in that dynamic between the person providing the service and the person paying for the service, as opposed to when you go into a community, everyone is equal and you don’t have to feel like you’re less than or more than or anything, because you’re literally on the same playing field, even if you and your coach have like the exact same amount of sobriety, there’s just still this dynamic between the provider, the service provider and the person receiving the service that is done away with in a community setting.
21:48 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So what if you’re in a community and you’ve only had you’ve only stacked a couple days, a couple weeks, and you go to a community meeting and everybody there is long timers. They’ve all had years or a couple months, or how do you kind of I’m having a hard time thinking of the word, but how do you kind of come to terms with I wrote down? Shame is fueled by isolation. How do you not compare yourself to other people that are in recovery?
22:26 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
I mean, we’re humans. We’re always going to compare ourselves to other people. The question is, what do we do with that comparison, right? Do we walk into the space and compare ourselves and then think badly of ourselves and think that we’re not good enough and we’re never gonna get there? Or can we use this comparison to fuel motivation? So we walk into a space and we see folks who have been exactly where I am today and see them doing the damn thing for months or years and say, okay, there is an opportunity for me to maybe get to where some of these folks are at. And the ideal would be that in a community space, if they don’t have newcomers meetings, that the people with the experience are welcoming and ushering people in and excited to see these brand new, fresh faces when they’re appearing, so that somebody who is coming in with a day sober feels welcome and feels safe in that space.
23:23 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
And do you almost think, and sometimes I feel this way I’m coming up on four days I’ll be three years sober from alcohol. I’m about gosh three years in a month from cocaine and two years in March from marijuana. And I almost like to be around people who are new quote unquote to sobriety. Maybe they’ve been having a go at it for some time but it kind of the fire in their bellies are there. They’ve got more invested, whereas kind of I think as you get along you can kind of have the fuck it button is kind of lingering.
24:00
You’re thinking and then you kind of get into that can I moderate You’re, maybe I’m cured now. I mean I know I’m never cured and I can never go back. But that addict voice sometimes pops up and says, oh, come on, dee, you’re cool, now just have one. Or you get around those, the family members or peers, that say, oh, you’re fine, now, geez, babe, you could probably just have one, or maybe just have a puff and you’ll be cool. And so I almost was curious if you thought that maybe it is good for old timers to be, and not that I’m an old timer, I mean, three years is not much in the span of how long I was using, but to be around people who are starting out because they are ready to go. They have a lot to teach us too.
24:40 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I mean I will always say that the newcomer is absolutely everybody’s important in a community. But your new folks are golden because, especially for folks with time under their belts, the new person reminds you of exactly what it was like in the beginning, right, and it can be that very powerful reminder that we might need to be like you know what. Let’s stay put. Let’s not have that one right, because a lot of times the newcomer comes in and there’s a lot going on, right, you typically don’t walk into recovery on like a winning streak. It’s usually because something really rough happened that you’re like holy shit, I’ve got to stop, right. So when that person gets to the holy shit, I’ve got to stop, point, and they’re walking into a meeting or logging onto a meeting, whether it’s online or in person, you know they have so much to offer because just their experience on that day one is so important to remind everyone else of how beautiful it is to come from that you know to push off from that point.
25:41 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
I’m making notes, I’m just I’m going to feverishly over here like love in this system, speaking about golden. What is talking? Kind of jumping back to shame. Do you think if you’re a person who drinks Kind of like you said, it’s ice shame is fueled by isolation that you need to get that on a shirt, like that could be your like theme theme mantra? I’ve never heard anybody say that before and I almost was. I’m curious if you think that people who kind of drink in private it’s harder for them to seek help, maybe because they haven’t hit a rock bottom, quote-unquote Whereas like the hardcore part of your, if they get to you eyes, they go to rehab. You know bad, they almost die, they want to take their lives. Maybe that’s like an imposed bottom, whereas if you’re drinking in private and nobody really knows, you’ve got to determine when you go for help.
26:37 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I would say that was definitely my experience, right Like I was so outwardly successful in drinking so much in secret. I didn’t want anyone to know my secret, not even my doctor, who was like sworn to secrecy because of HIPAA, right Like even that wasn’t good enough for me, and so I would go to my regular doctor and lie about my alcohol consumption until the one time that my blood work came back and it was glaring the obvious that I had been drinking because I had alcoholic liver disease. I couldn’t hide it anymore. But you know, before that point I never wanted to open up because I didn’t want anyone to know that side of me.
27:11 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
Yeah and I wonder if and that’s a lot of the the people that I see now in different groups that they really nobody knows and they just want somebody to see it. They just want somebody to pick up on it and go, hey, do you need help? And I think that I mean in theory. I would hope that it’s getting easier in today’s society. You know, you can follow people on insta. Like you said, there’s tons of groups to go to. But making that first step and we talked about, you know, going to a group and really talking about how the people can be seen and another great one you said was Comparison really fuels that motivation. How would you get somebody? You know maybe they’re googling, am I an alcoholic? Maybe they’re starting to see, you know, these kind of red flags coming up. How do you get? How do you encourage someone to make the leap to get help?
28:09 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, it’s so tricky because when someone is in that situation of doing everything in secret, they almost they want to recover in secret too, right, like, because you know it’s almost like, well, you want to treat your recovery the same way that you were about your alcohol. But if, in this case, if you were very secretive about your alcohol, it’s like well, how can you ease this person in right you a recovery space so that they can feel safe and they can feel anonymous and so and, like you said, if they’re super successful and they’re everything, you looks great and wonderful on the outside and they don’t want anybody to know.
28:43 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
So, and almost think you know I can do everything else, like I’m a hardcore, independent woman, like nobody’s gonna help me. I’ve got this, you know, and so maybe would how I’m sorry I cut you off, but that was I was thinking of you saying, like I’m a successful woman, like this is how you know I’ve got, I’ve got this almost a facade of how great I’ve got it handled. How do you know? How do you read, how do you know? And then how do you reach out?
29:11 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I think, like for the person who is drinking in secret, you know, if the first thing is needing to ease into a space, you know, I would say an online community is going to absolutely be like your best bet to start, because you can go on there when you sign in to zoom, you don’t even have to use your full name, right, you can turn your camera off and then slowly start to build that trust with the community space. And as you build that trust, then maybe one day you can challenge yourself and turn your camera on right, or maybe.
29:38
Challenge yourself and use your voice and maybe keep your camera off. But I think like that’s going to be the best way for someone who is so attached to the secret life of drinking To transition into a recovery space where there can be in community and start to see that they’re not the only one, because as soon as they were to share that hey, I’m so and so and I drink in secret, I would be confident that like half the room would say, oh yeah, that was me too, right, right, right right and even if you’re not the person who drinks in secret, eventually, even if you’re a hardcore party or hardcore user, you start doing things in secret.
30:13 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
You know, eventually it starts to get to a point where you’re, you know, pulling the wool over eyes at some point. You know, and even I was, I was pretty much out there, but when my family would go to bed I would. I would continue, you know. So, although I was, I was not hiding anything per se. I did, you know after, after the sun went down. You know, gosh, I know we’re coming up on time.
30:36
I guess there is one other question that I had for you, and so we’re going to kind of encourage people to get into a meeting, get into. How do we find meetings and groups? If I’m not really in the community, I can find. I know everybody, right, and we all know everybody. We think we know we go to the sober summit. How do you find somebody if you don’t want to go to AA, because you might go in there and somebody would recognize you Right? Or you know Bill sees you not I hate to use Bill because that’s right, the AA thing, but you’re walking down the street and they see you go in how do you find people if you’re not looking?
31:16 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah. So I mean I think like your first best bet. I mean, you know, in terms of online communities, the first one I would recommend is the luckiest club. That’s the one that I work with. We run meetings. We have about 60 meetings a week. I would absolutely recommend that they have a free seven day trial.
31:34
I recently finished working at the reframe app. The reframe app is good for folks who are also considering moderating. Even though it does not work for me, it works for some folks. So the reframe app does support people who are quitting and people who are moderating. You also have smart recovery. I believe they have online meetings as well.
31:55
If you are a woman, she recovers also is another option for women. If you are an African American woman, the sober black girls club is a great option. So for women of color, that is an option. They are also now hosting meetings for men, so I believe they also have like an option for men there. So, yeah, I would say those are really good communities. And then, in terms of say, like online, like yeah, if you use Instagram, if you don’t want to use your personal Instagram, you know you can create like a little anonymous one just for following a bunch of sobriety accounts and I mean, just hit those hashtags. You know hashtag sober hashtag, sobriety hashtag sober women. You know hashtag sober women of color. You know, whatever you want to look for and you would be able to find find folks that way as well.
32:42 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
Awesome. I’ve been doing a lot of work with the Sober Town podcast and they they’ve got a great website. They do a lot of work with Erica Spiegelman she does rewired and I’ve also been working with Ola Sober, which they have an Ola Sober for men as well. And what do you think about? This is my other little question here what do you think about like a tracker? I started on the I am sober, like it’s like a tracker on your phone and then you can, you know, count your days, and then you they have a community there and I think there’s what sober buddy they kind of count days.
33:16 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Did you count your days in the beginning, or I let the app do it for me, okay, so you know, I mean, I have a couple of apps that keep track of, like you know, my sobriety date that I’ve just put in there, and on occasion I’ll like open up the app and be like, oh, it’s been this much time. You know, I definitely I pay attention to my anniversary and at this point that’s really all I pay attention to. I kept an eye out for my 1000 days because Comic club, yeah, the comic club.
33:45
So I did pay attention to when that came. And then, yeah, I really just pay attention to the anniversaries, and after that it’s just a day at a time really, so I would not be able to tell you how many days I have right now like off the top of my head. I can’t tell you, I would have to look it up.
33:59 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
Well, can you look it up and tell us what about, um? Do you? Did you give yourself little gifts as you reached milestones? Or do you celebrate on your anniversaries? Or I know you said you don’t moderate. What do you think about people who do moderate? I mean, do you work with people who do moderate? Or are you kind of like, hey, you know, if you’re doing a dry January, it’s like, oh, I’ve got, you know, 10 days left and I can get hammered, you know, whereas if someone’s going, hey, this isn’t for the long haul, you know, um, and that’s a little bit easier than doing one day at a time.
34:34 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Yeah, so in terms of moderating, um, I do actually not recently, but I have had clients who have wanted to moderate, because it’s not my job to tell you what your goal is, right, okay, the client to decide what, what they’re working on and what their goal is. So I have worked with a few people who have tried to moderate and I have seen some of them do better than others, and the ones who really have struggled, um, you know, with them I have said, you know, like I think this is an opportunity to really explore being alcohol free, right? So with regard to them, um then, in terms of your other question, I can’t remember what the other question was- Do you celebrate milestones or do you encourage that?
35:17 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
Or, like, you know even your anniversary, like do you buy yourself a cake, or I don’t know if you love sugar, but, um, you know, do you buy yourself gifts as you hit milestones. Like what do you think of that?
35:26 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
So, yeah, I do celebrate my milestones, but I don’t really do anything like crazy for them. I think it’s more just like I make sure to always, on my anniversary, share. You know, I make sure to post about it and share about it because, again, I do think it is important for that visibility, for people to see, okay, this person has not drank or has not had alcohol in this much time, and so for those reasons I do, um, but I mean, I don’t personally like have a cake or do anything like particularly special now.
35:55 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
Okay, well, I figure you know that’s kind of that. Oh, I’m going to buy myself a present when I hit milestones, and you know. So I’m kind of thinking well, you know, maybe I just want to there, I changed addictions. Right now I’m a shopping, shopping and sugar fiend over here. But, um, I think I know we’ve got a wrap soon, because and I probably just hit you with more questions than you can tolerate for today Um, what else? Just wait to when, as I wake up at three in the morning like, oh my gosh, I should have asked Jessica that one.
36:30 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
It’s funny, yeah, I mean I don’t really have anything else just off the top of my head. I mean I think the topic of forgiveness is a really important one for folks to really reflect on, whether it’s for themselves or for other people. And again, there is no one right or wrong way to do it. Like you have to decide that you are doing it how it feels right for for you and that that’s the end of it. You know, other people can insert their opinions and it’s up to you to you can listen to them or you cannot. I find life a lot more peaceful when I’m not like letting myself be flooded by other people’s opinions and just following what feels right for me. I love that.
37:08 – Dana White-Guerrie (Guest)
And I really like the idea that you know I can forgive you, but that doesn’t mean I have to let you back in my life.
37:14
You know, and just kind of coming to terms with what you need and what’s best for your recovery. I think that’s amazing. Yeah Well, thank you for all these tidbits. I’ll I’ll get the shirts made for you for but it’s been awesome and I so appreciate just letting me get your knowledge and I know you’re doing amazing things and you don’t. You don’t need me to stroke you and how incredible you are, but your brilliance is touching a lot of people, so I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.
37:47 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)
Thank you, dana. That means a lot. So it was. It was my pleasure. Thank you so so much. Hey, if you are enjoying what you are listening to, I invite you to subscribe and share the podcast, but also go to my website, bottomless to sobercom, and find out other opportunities to work with me, from free workshops to writing classes to one to one life coaching opportunities. You can schedule a free consultation for that. Everything is available at bottomless to sobercom. See you then.
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