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In this episode:

I reflect on a passage from The Pivot Year by Brianna Wiest and what it means to truly be where your feet are. I share how recovery has taught me to embrace stillness, simplicity, and the quiet moments that used to feel empty. Life doesn’t have to be loud or flashy to be full, and sometimes, the real transformation happens in the most unglamorous routines. If you’ve ever wondered whether your peaceful, sober life is “enough,” this one’s for you.

Resources:

Find me on Substack!

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas:
Hey, everyone, welcome back. Before I get started, I just wanted to give you a heads-up that episodes may become shorter or a little bit less frequent in the coming two months, only because I’m stepping into a very busy season for my 9 to 5, which impacts just how my energy is outside of work. So just putting that out there for you all—I don’t hold myself to a specific schedule, so I will post episodes when I can, and when I can’t, I just won’t. Thanks for listening today. I appreciate you all for showing up. I can’t believe I’ve had this podcast now for about two years. Time flies.

Anyway, what I wanted to do for today’s episode was actually start with a reading from The Pivot Year by Brianna Wiest.

I’ll be honest—I did not write down which Pivot Year reading this was. It was written down in one of my journals, and whatever version of myself felt like writing it down that day accidentally did not write the entry number down. My bad. But I do really love the reading, and I just wanted to speak briefly on it for today’s episode.

Brianna wrote:

“You may believe that living life to the fullest is seeing every country in the world, and quitting your job on a whim and falling recklessly in love. But it’s really just knowing how to be where your feet are.
It’s learning how to take care of yourself, how to make a home within your own skin. It’s learning to build a simple life you are proud of.
A life most fully lived is not always composed of the things that rock you awake, but those things that slowly assure you it’s okay to slow down.
That you don’t always have to prove yourself. That you don’t need to fight forever or constantly want more.
That it’s okay for things to be just as they are.
Little by little, you’ll begin to see that life can only grow outward in proportion to how stable it is inward.
That if the joy is not in the little things first, the big things won’t truly find us.”

Oof. I just love that whole piece.

But I especially love that line about making a home within your own skin, right? I think that just speaks directly to the work we do here in recovery. I think about the fact that when I was in active addiction, I was always chasing something. If I wasn’t chasing a drink, I was chasing validation, love, the next achievement. There was always forward movement in terms of going after the next fix.

And so, when I first got sober, I actually thought recovery would also kind of follow that same model—that it would have all sorts of external transformations. You know, landing a dream job, perfect relationship—life would be beautiful and perfect on the outside. But what no one really talks about early on is that real change often looks a little bit boring.

For me, especially early on when I used to take psych meds to help with my journey, it meant waking up early to take those meds—not because I felt like it, but because they helped regulate my mood. It meant opening the mail I had been avoiding because I realized, “Dang, I’ve got to step up and actually own my responsibilities,” which meant paying some bills I’d been ignoring.

Right now, I’m recording this on my couch on a Friday evening while my daughter’s napping. There’s nothing really glamorous about what I’m doing right now, but this is how I’m connecting. This is how I’m moving forward in my day-to-day life.

This isn’t necessarily Instagrammable stuff. It definitely doesn’t look like “living to the fullest” on social media. But what it does look like is peace. This is stability for me. And honestly, if I go back to my life years ago, this is radically different than what my life used to be like.

So here are a couple of scenarios that might resonate for some of you listening. I want you to think about how our life doesn’t have to be loud to feel full.

For example, maybe you are already a year or two sober, and you’re looking around and starting to wonder, “Is this it?” Maybe the chaos has gotten quiet, and now the thrills in your life involve laundry, therapy appointments, sitting with your thoughts, reflecting, and journaling.

It might sound incredibly unexciting, but honestly, that’s where a lot of the real work begins—when you’re able to sit with your feelings, not run away from them, and get deeper with everything you’re doing.

Maybe you recently saw a friend post about a spontaneous trip or quitting their job to follow their dreams. And you look at what you’re doing and start to think maybe you’re behind. But what if you’re just building something a little bit slower? What if you’re building something that’s more solid? Maybe you don’t need to blow up your life to feel alive anymore.

Maybe you don’t have to engage in extreme behaviors to feel alive and fulfilled—and that’s okay.

Or maybe you’re seeing people surrounding themselves with big groups of others, celebrating and partying. And you’re realizing that the idea of being in big groups doesn’t appeal to you, and you’re honestly just enjoying your own company.

Maybe it’s not that you’ve given up on connecting with other people, but that you’ve finally made peace with who you are—and that’s huge. I want you to recognize that and own that, because for years, for some of us, being alone was a massive trigger. For many of us, being alone was intolerable.

So I just want to offer that gentle reminder: as we sit through life, and it’s not so thrilling or glamorous—that’s okay. Your life doesn’t have to be loud to be full. It doesn’t have to be particularly exciting on social media for it to be full. Life can be slow. Life can be quiet. Life can be rooted.

And that’s where growth can happen the most.

Maybe you’re walking or just sitting while listening to this podcast episode. Here are a couple of questions to close out with—food for thought, as I like to say:

1. What does it mean for you to be where your feet are?
   How do you ground yourself when you’re feeling pulled in a lot of different directions?
2. Are you still chasing old definitions of what successful or exciting looks like?
   What would it look like for you to embrace something slower, or more stable?
3. What are some small things that can bring you peace today that might be more quiet?
   What have you started noticing or appreciating that maybe you overlooked before you got sober?

Again, you don’t have to prove anything to be worthy of rest or peace or joy. And you don’t have to keep fighting against yourself forever.

It’s okay to be still.
You’re allowed to be enough exactly where your feet are today.

Thanks so much for spending some time with me. I appreciate you all. Feel free to share this episode with someone else in recovery—or even someone who’s just learning to slow down and be more present.

Thanks, everyone. Have a great one.

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In this episode:

So, what is ego, anyway? In this episode, I talk about how ego shows up in everyday life, especially in recovery, and how choosing presence over control can bring more peace and connection. I share personal insights, a favorite quote, and a few reflection questions to help you soften and stay curious.

Resources:

Find me on Substack!

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas:
Hey, everyone, welcome back to Bottomless is Sober. And today I want to talk about something that’s been sitting with me lately. And honestly, it’s a lesson that shows up all over the place, and hopefully you’ll find it helpful, too. So it started with a quote that I actually stumbled on while I was playing around on Substack.

I’ve got a new page on there—definitely follow me or subscribe to my podcast and my Substack, which is also called Bottomless is Sober. I’ll put the link in the show notes for today. But I have really been enjoying using Substack. It’s a great space for writing, storytelling, and reflection.

So, anyway, here is the quote, and it’s a Yung Pueblo quote, and he wrote:
“Ego loves to think that it has a good grasp on everything. But compassion understands that there are more views than one. Taking in more perspectives than just your own, and seeing things from multiple angles is not only a trait of good leadership, but it is a key aspect of wisdom.”

I love that, right? And this quote—it just gave me pause because it speaks directly to something that I’ve been wrestling with, and it is that desire to control things, especially the desire to be right.

I swear I have like this illusion that, years into recovery, still lives with me that says, “If I just manage everything well enough, I’m going to feel safe.” But what I have to come back to is the truth that peace is not coming from controlling everything. It’s really going to come from staying open—especially when we deal with other human beings—staying open to their perspective and their side of things.

Now, before we go further, I do want to take a moment to unpack what I mean by ego, because it’s one of those words that can mean lots of different things depending on where you hear it in the first place. And if you are newer to recovery, if you are newer to personal development, this might be helpful for you.

Some people do associate ego with arrogance, right? Like someone is full of themselves, or someone who thinks they’re better than everyone else. But when we’re talking about personal growth and recovery work, it’s much deeper than that. Like, yes, that’s true, but there’s more to it. So you know I had to—I wanted to get formal definitions, right? So I went to the Cleveland Clinic.

According to them, ego is the part of your personality that helps you stay grounded. It helps you make wise choices. It helps you manage emotions. And it’s basically a middle ground between your impulses and what your moral compass is. Essentially, your ego is going to help you regulate your emotions, handle your relationships, make decisions, and just adapt to anything that life is throwing at you.

When your ego is balanced, it’s going to support you in staying present and rational. But when your ego is out of balance—maybe because you’re dealing with stress or unhealed trauma or old wounds—then it can cause us to deal with overreactions, getting defensive, or falling into old control patterns (which is kind of like where I live right now). But there’s another side to ego, too.

Eckhart Tolle, the spiritual teacher and author of The Power of Now, discusses ego not as our rational mind, but as our false sense of self. It’s an identity that we build through our thoughts, the roles we’ve played, and the past stories. One of his quotes is:
“The ego is the unobserved mind that runs your life when you are not present. It is the voice in your head that pretends to be you.”

So in recovery work—or if I work with a client one-on-one—and they tell me a thought they have and they’re so convinced it’s true, and I follow up with, “What evidence do you have for that?”—that’s usually where we’re kind of living in this ego space. We’re debunking the myths and beliefs we really think are true, and that we think are a part of us, and it turns out—whoops—they’re not.

So when we confuse who we are with what we think… or with what we’ve been through… or how we want others to see us—that is ego, too. And Eckhart Tolle’s perspective reminds us that ego is not just about arrogance, but about disconnection. It disconnects us from presence, from the truth, from each other. So just think: totally disconnected.

But now we’re in recovery, right? So we get the opportunity to learn to reconnect—with everything. With ourselves, with our bodies, even with the present moment. A big part of being connected with our bodies and the now is paying attention to when ego is stepping up, getting in control, getting in that driver’s seat.

For some of us, it might be through overthinking. Others: control, fear, falling into old survival strategies. But if we can choose to soften, stay curious, and let presence lead, that can really help us step into a little more peace in our day-to-day lives.

Again, for me, I am definitely still learning how to recognize when ego is stepping in. Recently, my partner and I were navigating a big decision, and it really brought this to the surface for me, right? Because of course in my head, I have a clear picture of what I think the “right” outcome is. And of course, it’s centered around my perspective.

Then I had to stop and ask myself, “What else could be true? What am I not seeing?” And again, I’m not operating by myself anymore. So like, what does we look like in this situation—not just me?

These are a lot of questions we ask in The Luckiest Club, the sobriety community I’m part of. But really, these questions are anchors for me in sobriety, especially being in a relationship. Because if I want to not just coexist, but actually grow with another human being, I’ve got to soften up.

I have to let go of the need to be the one who’s always right. And I’m telling you, that is very hard. Very humbling. But it’s also the gateway to connection and understanding, emotional maturity, and emotional sobriety—which is one of those terms that can be annoying to hear, but it’s real.

So, anyway, let’s turn it over to you all. Here are a couple of everyday moments where ego might sneak in, and I’m curious if you recognize yourself in any of these:

1. Relationship decision:
   You and your partner are deciding where to live. You’ve already mapped it out in your head. Then they bring up something unexpected. Your first response might be to shut it down, because ego says, “If I let go of my plan, I’m giving up my vision of safety.” But presence might ask:
   Can I trust that shared decisions can also lead to shared joy?

In early recovery, many of us crave control as a substitute for security. But true partnership invites us to build something we couldn’t have imagined alone.

2. Family dynamics:
   A parent criticizes your career, parenting, or sobriety journey. It hits a nerve. Ego says: They never understand me. I have to prove myself. But presence might ask:
   What if I release the need for their approval and stay rooted in my truth?

Our healing might trigger someone else’s discomfort, but we don’t need to carry their fear as our own.

3. Workplace friction:
   You’re left out of a meeting or event. Ego says: They don’t value me. I need to prove myself. Presence might say:
   Can I speak up for myself from a place of worth—not woundedness?

In sobriety, our self-worth becomes internal. We can advocate for ourselves with clarity, not desperation.

4. Friendships in transition:
   You’re changing in sobriety, setting boundaries, and a friend pulls away. Ego says: I must’ve done something wrong. But presence might say:
   What if they are grieving who I used to be?

Not everyone will come with you. People grow apart—and that’s okay. The most loving thing might be to honor the shift.

5. A tough day/slip/relapse:
   You snap, or regret something. Shame floods in. Ego says: See? You haven’t changed. You’re still broken.
   But presence says: This is just a moment—not a sentence. You can return to yourself.

Recovery is not perfection. It is a daily return to compassion.

So these examples are all different moments where, instead of trying to control a situation, we get to practice choosing connection and compassion—whether it’s toward others or ourselves.

Here are a few reflection questions to take with you:

• Where is ego showing up as certainty, and how can I replace it with curiosity?
• What assumptions might I be making without realizing it?
• How can I practice compassion by considering another person’s perspective?
• What else might be true?

That last question stings—but honestly, it’s one of the most important questions I ask myself.

So with all that said, if you are in a season of navigating any kind of relationship dynamic—romantic, family, work, or even the one with yourself—I hope this episode offered something useful. Remember:
Your ego’s job is to protect you—even when you don’t need the protection anymore.
When you’ve done work on yourself, you don’t have to live in protection mode. You get to live in connection mode.

Thanks so much for being here. If this episode resonated, send it to a friend, leave a review, or come find me on Substack. Or come write with me—my writing class starts next week. I’d love to connect with you further.
Until next time, I’ll catch you all. Have a good one.

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I sit down with Robert Marino, founder of Rolling Hills Recovery Center and Novara Recovery Center, to talk about what really happens inside a treatment facility. We explore how to know when it’s time to seek help, what to expect from a 30-day program, and why not all treatment centers are created equal. Robert also opens up about his own journey from addiction to long-term recovery and I speak about my own experience, having been to treatment seven or eight times. If you’ve ever wondered whether you or a loved one might be “bad enough” to need help, or felt shame about how many times you’ve tried, this conversation is for you.

Resources:

Rolling Hills Recovery Center

Rolling Hills Recovery Center on YouTube

Novara Recovery Center

Jessica’s Resources:

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back. So for today’s episode, I have a special guest. I’ve been very lucky with several guests lately. Today I have Robert Marino, who is the founder of Rolling Hills Recovery Center and Novara Recovery center up in the northeast.

Jessica Dueñas: And if you’ve ever wondered what on earth happens behind the doors of a treatment facility when someone should go, what to expect and how to choose the right one. My conversation with Robert today is for you. We’re also going to dive a little bit into Robert’s personal why, for doing this work and what he’s learned from working alongside people in recovery. So Robert! Welcome thanks for coming.

Robert Marino: Hey? Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. It’s an honor to be here and always get in front of the recovery community and talk about the truths, the myths, and you know the expectations and the personal journeys, because

Robert Marino: without that identification, that’s I probably never would have got to where I am today in my recovery, because I had to see people that came before me that had these same sufferings, that I did, that I could sit back and say, Wow! That sounds like me a little bit right there. And it was. It was enticing to me to be able to get to the goal of where they are right. You know, when I, when I was out there right a little bit about what it was like

Robert Marino: in the most

Robert Marino: explicit way. Horrid! Right? It was absolutely terrible. I got to the point of homelessness. Loss of family. You know, living outside taking bird baths in a dunkin donuts bathroom, and just I could not get out of my addiction. You know I was dual dual, addicted Cross addicted. You know I drank every single day. I was also addicted to heroin.

Robert Marino: You know it just it brought me to my knees, and it brought me to a spot where I didn’t know what to do right, because I was so maladjusted to living a certain lifestyle that that was the only normal lifestyle to me, if that makes any sense so, and what I mean by that is, you know, I would hear other people talk, and they would say, Wow, man, you’ve been in jail and like what you haven’t

Robert Marino: it didn’t. It didn’t connect with me that this was not normal behavior. And I love telling this story because this is just the the mind of an alcoholic drug addict. Right? So my wife and I, we’ve we’ve been together for a very long time now, and I remember I was maybe about 2 years sober, and we went on a vacation down to Myrtle Beach.

Robert Marino: and she is a normal person, right? She drinks like a regular person, not alcoholic behavior, and I remember she had a bottle of wine, and she poured herself a glass, and I woke up the next morning, and the glass was halfway full, and it just was a it blew my mind.

Robert Marino: and and where my mind goes was, how did you not drink that whole glass of wine, and then go for the bottle, and then have to go back to the liquor store and continue till you were blacked out drunk. These are just some things that escaped me. And, you know, coming into treatment, I actually was in an indigent, indigent treatment facility in Morristown, New Jersey, called the Market Street Mission. It’s a faith-based program, because I had nothing. You know I had my whole life in 3 black garbage bags.

Robert Marino: and you know they brought me in free of cost. No insurance, none of that. And I slept on a on a chapel floor, on a jail mattress until I got enrolled into the actual program.

Robert Marino: And then from there I started getting connected to the resources. And if it wasn’t for that moment for actually enrolling in that program and taking that hard step because it was scary. I knew that I was about to commit to removing

Robert Marino: the only thing that gave me some sense of ease and comfort, because that was my problem. My whole life was, I always felt out of place in my own skin. You know I’ve been diagnosed with Adhd from when I was a kid. So I’ve always had a problem sitting still, and that comfortability. And you know the opioids gave me that relaxation that I was looking for right.

Robert Marino: and it kind of it mellowed me out a little bit, but as soon as I wasn’t high it was still back to the same, you know, tortoise in a hare. I was all over the place, you know. I could never stay the course steady, so you know that was the opportunity that I needed in my life at that. At that point.

Jessica Dueñas: Gotcha. And so with that, thank you for sharing so much about your story. Now with you. Having gone to a treatment facility yourself, what made you decide to open your own.

Robert Marino: So I was actually, where was I at? In the very beginning I was

Robert Marino: doing mortgages right. I became a loan officer, and I worked at a restaurant and all these different things.

Robert Marino: and you know I’m in long-term recovery. I’ve been sober a long time now, and I remember my business partner for Rolling Hills Recovery Center in New Jersey. We

Robert Marino: we lost contact. We were childhood friends, right, and I was jogging down the street one day in Morristown, and here he is. He pulls up next to me, said, Hey, Rob, have you been? I haven’t seen you in forever, and I said, You know we started chatting, and he was like, What are you up to these days? What are you doing for work? And I said, Well, you know I’m actually doing. I’m a loan officer for a mortgage company getting mortgages for people to buy their houses.

Robert Marino: and he said, Hey, this is where what I’ve been doing, and he knew that I was in sobriety, and he asked me, and he said, Would that ever be something that you’d be interested in doing? And I said, Yeah, I mean, I’m in the position right now, because you know how, when you 1st get sober, you just want to help the world right? You just want to say you just think you could save everybody by spreading the message of sobriety, and I was like, no, I don’t think that’s for me. And then, you know, I don’t know. A few weeks or a month goes by, and I was thinking about it, and I gave him a call, and

Robert Marino: he got me my 1st job at a treatment center doing business development, for, you know, like going and spreading the message about the treatment facility to get clients to come into the program.

Robert Marino: and then it start. It started from there and then, you know, as years went by, him and I started talking, and we were like, you know, we see all these treatment facilities, and you know not. All treatment facilities are the same. Caliber. Right are created equally. Some are not

Robert Marino: adhering to the proper principles, while others flourish, and they do fantastic work. And you know I saw things in different treatment facilities that I did not like right. I didn’t like how it started to become a money driven operation where it was just all about getting people into treatment that had to have a good paying insurance policy, right? And and these are some of the things that had

Robert Marino: motivated me to be able to. You know one. People always tell me, Rob. What you do is God’s work, and you know I don’t. Bs them right. I’m not going to sit there and say, yes, this is exactly. You know, I’m doing this to save the world.

Robert Marino: We do this to support our families, and at the same time we get to help people that we encounter right? And that’s just the reality behind it. But what we do is make sure that we provide the best kind of clinical services possible, and that’s something that you know we can get into if you want to take it there. And in a few moments to explain the program at Rolling Hills.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, for sure. So first, st before we get into kind of like the programs that you all offer, I think one of the big questions that somebody listening might have for themselves is, if if you are struggling with addiction right? At what point is it that you should go into a treatment facility. And at what point are you okay to kind of do this at home? Because I know for myself. I

Jessica Dueñas: went to treatment several times, and I know that I felt like I was at a place of feeling complete lack of control. But I’m curious what you all like in your facilities. How you determine. Yes, like at an intake interview. Yes, you should stay with us, or like no, we think that you’re okay to like, go home, go to meetings, etc.

Robert Marino: Yeah. So you know one of the 1st indicators. So let’s let’s start at the beginning. Where is treatment necessary? Right? Do I even need to go into a detox, a residential, an outpatient setting.

Robert Marino: If.

Robert Marino: in my experience, if life is becoming unmanageable to the point where you cannot control your consumption of either a narcotic or alcohol. Then it’s probably time to seek out. You know, if you’re suffering family relationships, you’re missing work, you’re getting fired from jobs as a result of

Robert Marino: your usage, then. Yes, it’s probably time to seek help now, what we do is we do an assessment with individuals before they even come into our program. And then we’re going to go over prior drinking history or usage history, any kind of underlying Co occurring disorders that may be prevalent. So depression, stress and anxiety, disorder, bipolar disorder. Because we also do.

Robert Marino: you know, med management and prescribing at our facility. So we have advanced nurse practitioners which are psychiatric nurse practitioners to be able to help people get on medication, get their levels balanced, and then stay on track with that. With those meds.

Robert Marino: Now we, once the assessment is done, then we’ll make our determination. Does this. Does this person need detox, and then we’ll start them off at that detox level of care if they are reporting, only drinking a couple times a week, or you know they have work that they still need to engage with families that they need to engage with. So there’s a bunch of things that kind of collectively come together to establish what level of care is necessary for an individual.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, no. And I think that that’s important. I love that you all take the time to do an assessment, and that you do offer levels of care, because I know there were times that I did an intensive outpatient program, and I completely bombed that. So I had to go inpatient. And you know the reason I did intensive outpatient was because I was trying to keep my work schedule going and trying to get sober, and the the truth was, I was in too deep. And so, you know, the

Jessica Dueñas: person running the outpatient program was like, Hey, we really think you need to kind of.

Jessica Dueñas: you know. Take some time off work and go in so that you can just make this like your number one priority. The other thing I wanted to mention. I also think it’s great that you all offer detox treatment.

Robert Marino: I just wanna be make that clear. So we’re not the actual medical portion of it. We do your traditional 30 day programming. So what we do with the detox is, we have our partners that we utilize, that we trust and been using for years. We align them with the detox, and then once they’re completed, then we bring them in on a bed to bed training.

Jessica Dueñas: Perfect. Okay, so.

Robert Marino: I don’t want to mislead anybody.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah, no. I’m so glad you clarified that for the listeners, because for anyone listening, I will share from my personal experience as not, and not as medical advice. You all because I’m not a doctor. But what I do know is that detoxing specifically from alcohol and benzodiazepines can be lethal. And so it is so important that if you are struggling with alcohol or benzos that you do follow up with medical care because you don’t want to end up having seizures.

Jessica Dueñas: or you know you’re going into cardiac arrest or any of the other. Many things that can happen, I know, detoxing from the other substances can be incredibly incredibly painful, and basically torture from having been in detox with people coming off of opiates and everything else. But please understand, it’s always good to get assessed and get medical advice from a licensed medical doctor before you decide

Jessica Dueñas: to quit something cold. Turkey, whatever you’re using at the end of the day. But I’m glad that you all kind of work with a Detox center. And then you take people in for the 30 day programs.

Robert Marino: Correct, and you know, and just to piggyback off what you were saying there a little bit. So with that, you’re right. Alcohol and disclaimer as well. I’m not a doctor either, but you know alcohol and benzodiazepines. Yes, that can kill you. It’s lethal right. And but here’s a lot of things that. Why, that assessment is so necessary, too, because people don’t pay attention or undermine this fact right here is that a lot of people are using benzodiazepines to taper off alcohol, which is perfectly okay. Right

Robert Marino: now, a lot of people are also addicted to benzodiazepines that drink alcohol. And now and why? Let’s say right? Because benzodiazepines are also a depressant which produce similar effects as alcohol.

Robert Marino: So what we do is when people come into our program after that detox process. We’re looking to transition them off of the benzodiazepine, especially if they were an alcoholic and try to get them on something that’s a non-narcotic that can maybe deal with any kind of stress or anxiety disorder that they have.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for pointing that out, because a hundred percent. And I remember this again from my lived experience and the people that I walked through those doors with. There were some people who struggled with benzos, and they basically said it was almost like alcohol in a pill version. So I think it’s super important to point that out.

Jessica Dueñas: So you mentioned your treatment facilities, their 30 day program. So tell us a little bit about what it’s like. Once people go in there, what services are they getting? What therapies are there kind of like? What does someone’s calendar look like when they’re a patient in a 30 day program with you all.

Robert Marino: Oh, yeah, for sure. So as soon as people walk in, we have a custom that they are greeted at the front door, they’re welcomed in. They’re toured around the facility if they haven’t prior toured already, and then we introduce them to all the staff. We introduce them to all the clients so they can come and and see everybody interacting. First.st Then we sit down and we do their intake process, which usually takes an hour or 2.

Robert Marino: We’re just getting all documentation signed a photo of the of the client for our Emr records and things like that logistical stuff.

Robert Marino: And then, after that, we’ll put them right in the group. They’re assigned their primary therapist. So you know, treatment at Rolling Hills recovery Center is pretty unique. Actually, so like a lot of treatment facilities. We are a trauma informed, evidence-based program. So all the modalities that we offer are backed by science to show that they work.

Robert Marino: So we implement cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing. But then we also mix in holistic therapy. So we have a music for recovery program that we like to implement. And it’s with this wonderful woman named Kathy. She’s 27 years sober, you know. She’s been instructing people musically for 20 years.

Robert Marino: but with that mix of her being 27 years sober and understanding how to therapeutically combine music. It’s such a wonderful experience to have. And it’s the same thing with our recovery. Yoga, that we have our Yoga instructor, Karen. She’s also in long-term sobriety. So it’s the same thing we’re showing them how to therapeutically do breathing exercises through Yoga guided sound bowl

Robert Marino: meditation reiki, and then also mixed with that you know her being in 20 years in recovery is also a plus, too. We also have equine therapy as well to where we take our clients out. They get to engage with horses. It shows them how to start trusting a little, bit. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Dueñas: You all listening, can’t see my smile.

Robert Marino: Right, right, right.

Jessica Dueñas: Hard equine therapy I like lit up, but anyway, keep going, Robert.

Robert Marino: Absolutely, you know. And it’s wonderful, too, because, you know, you see, individuals that are just so closed off from any kind of human interaction because of, like, you know, I was through some traumatic incidences in my time, right? And you know, to watch people come out of that shell and start to interact with the horse or another animal is a beautiful thing to see, because they’re starting to trust something that emotion is still there.

Robert Marino: that inkling that they care about anybody but themselves is an amazing thing to witness, because, as drug addicts and alcoholics, we are all so selfish and self-centered, right because it consumes us. And to start letting go of that behavior and and positively changing. It is a miracle in itself.

Jessica Dueñas: That I mean, I’m so impressed honestly to hear about all the offerings that you all have, because I just remember

Jessica Dueñas: from the different facilities that I went to. I stayed only at one that was a full on residential program that I was there for 35 days, and there was a lot of idle time for us, but there wasn’t. There really weren’t meaningful things for us to get into, and so pretty much in between like group therapy. And then, like we had, like, you know, alcohol and drug education kind of in between those things.

Jessica Dueñas: We just kind of sat around, and then we could go exercise if we wanted to, at the gym, but a lot of people just kind of sat around and vaped the whole time, and I remember being in one of the detox facilities that I went to.

Robert Marino: Again. There wasn’t really anything productive to do, and there was a lot of cigarette smoking, and you know, like somebody was like, well, you can just smoke. And I’m actually a non smoker. But there were times that I like picked up a cigarette and smoked it just because there was nothing else to do, and I was almost like, Well, I guess this is better than drinking myself to death, but I mean for the record I don’t smoke anymore. But

Robert Marino: right? And you know, and idle time is the devil’s playground whose grandmother hasn’t told him that right.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.

Robert Marino: You know, but but what we do is we keep them busy enough, but it’s not overkill either, so we like to break up the monotony of treatment because a lot of people have been in treatment and myself included Group Group group group that gets old after a while, too. So as so we’re we’re mixing group therapy in with all these other modalities that we offer

Robert Marino: and also individual therapy sessions. Right? So. But what we’ll do is we’ll do. Okay, we’ll do an hour of group relapse prevention group. Let’s say, go, take a 15 min, smoke, break right. You come back. We’ll do the next group. Then we break it up. After that by incorporate guided sound bowl meditation. Then, after that is another holistic modality. So they’re just not sitting in a 1 chair all day long. So there’s some movement right? And you mentioned the gym, too. So all

Robert Marino: of our clients get full gym memberships. Actually, it’s not, you know, a dungeon in the basement with mismatch, dumbbells and a treadmill, you know you’re going to an actual fitness. Gym, we take. We load up all of our clients in a van, and we bring them over there 3 or 4 times a week. So they have that access and that healthy outlet as well.

Jessica Dueñas: I love that that’s awesome. And you know, for anyone listening knows who knows that I love books. I think about the book. The body keeps the score by Bussell Vander Koch, and just how he talks about the alternative therapies where people really do need to get into their bodies and into movement. So again, I think that that’s all super cool

Jessica Dueñas: thinking about pros and cons of going to treatment. You know, I think one of the biggest reasons why I didn’t want to go was that I was really scared to take time away from work

Jessica Dueñas: at the time. I do have a daughter now, but at the time I didn’t have children. But I remember hearing, you know, other people who did have children who really were so upset about having to take time away from their families and things like that. What do you say to the person in that intake interview? That clearly it’s like red flags everywhere, giving, you know, given their substance use, and they really do need the treatment. But they have those concerns about work or their family. How do you all usually kind of like talk to them through. Talk them through that.

Robert Marino: Yeah. So there’s a lot of barriers for people to come into treatment right? And those are definitely 2 of the biggest ones. So work related barriers. It’s usually, you know, we can set people up with Fmla, which is the Family Medical Leave Act. So if they qualify for that 50 or more employees at the organization, the company that they work for. They’ve worked more than 1,250 h.

Robert Marino: They qualify for Fmla and our case management department will set that up, get it over to their Hr. Department, and then, once they’re qualified for Fmla, then they are now protected by Federal law that they cannot be fired because a lot of people don’t know. This is that addiction treatment is treated just the same as a woman leaving for pregnancy. Leave right? It’s covered underneath the Family Medical Leave Act to where you are protected from losing your job, and then, as far as the

Robert Marino: the family goes. You know what a lot of times our admissions coordinators need to gauge the person that they’re talking to. Right? It’s a lot of times our situation. We’re not calling up a treatment facility because things are going great. Right? You know that. And that’s just the reality behind it. So we try to challenge them on, you know. Are you being a proper mother or father?

Robert Marino: Are you being present? Are you just getting high or drunk all day long? Are you yelling and screaming at your children all day long? Are you just sitting there? An empty shell of a human being on the couch, scrolling through your phone and not? Are you not meeting your duties as a parent? Right? And that’s usually the selling point to somebody or not even the selling point. Just the mind just to open their mind and their eyes to that false reality that they could be

Robert Marino: living in at that current moment is that no, I’m not meeting the problem. I’m not treating my family the way I should be. And then that’s when we start to go into the next step in the process.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And you know, I think the other thing, too, that we can be so guilty of doing when we’re in active addiction is that we take the people in our lives for granted. And so for anybody who might be like, well, my kids are going to still be here, even if I don’t, you know, like I don’t need to go to treatment. I don’t want to leave my kids behind, but you don’t know if you know, the other parent could step in. You don’t know if you could ever, God forbid! Have an accident where the State steps in and removes your children

Jessica Dueñas: from your home because you didn’t address your addiction. And so I feel like anytime. I’ve had that conversation with someone who’s struggling and does have children. My reminder is yeah, like

Jessica Dueñas: they’re here today. But they might not be if you don’t get it together like, or your significant other like, who’s to say that your spouse. Your partner is going to want to continue to tolerate whatever you’re doing for another year another couple months, right like you don’t know when someone’s breaking point is, and they can just up and leave. So.

Robert Marino: And it’s like, you know. Take the chance. Come, take it, do it. Come into treatment because you are going to go home. A better parent. Right? I have 2 2 small daughters, and you know one’s 7 and one’s 3, and they have not had to see me take a sip of alcohol or do a drug since they’ve been alive right? And if they had, I was not

Robert Marino: suitable to raise children. Let me put it that way right? No, seriously, because I probably never would have been around, I would have been an absent parent. Right? And that’s just the reality of that. And you know once people understand that. Yes, I

Robert Marino: I can’t just do this for my children. I needed to do this for myself, to better my life, and then that is a byproduct of bettering your life. Now it starts to trickle in into the all the other facets of your life. So now you could become a better parent, become a better spouse, become a better worker, become a better friend. All the things that we neglected in when we were in our addiction.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so speaking of family, right? Let’s say, a family is looking for a treatment center for their loved one who is struggling. I firmly believe not. All treatment centers are created equal. And you know, I think, like you made mention of that earlier on that there are things that you don’t like in certain facilities that you’ve seen or experienced. So what should people be looking for when choosing a facility.

Robert Marino: That’s a great question. So number one is joint commission accreditation, right? Carf any kind of accreditation, any kind of

Robert Marino: government listing of a facility being on there, because, you know, digitally, there’s so many things out there these days that you can’t really tell who’s who and what we encourage is we want. Come and tour our facility. Come, sit down, meet with leadership. Come, see a day to day activity that the clients are doing. Come, see our house, I mean, as soon as they come. Like all of our clients, when they live in a 5,500 square foot mansion

Robert Marino: in ground swimming pool. It’s on 5 acres of land, you know. There’s memory foam mattresses in every single room with 55 inch flat screen TV. So as soon as they get there, they see that. Okay, this, this facility is the real deal, you know, because there’s a lot of facilities out there that will bait and switch you right. They know how to put the shiny objects, photos and stuff like that, and then you get there. And it’s not what you were expecting.

Robert Marino: So that’s a good. That’s a good thing to do is, you know, ask for a tour. Can I come, see your facility, and meet the staff first, st before I decide to enroll in your program.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, no, I think that that’s great. I know one of the things that I would say from the times that I had gone. We talked a little bit about this before I press record, but also the pathways to recovery. I think that one of my gripes with one of the places that I went to was that they force one type of recovery program over the others. And then they’re basically threatening to kick you out of their program if you don’t go

Jessica Dueñas: through a certain pathway. And I found that to be problem like again, I was compliant because I was just trying to. I was trying to live. So I was like, whatever you tell me to do, I’m just going to go ahead and do it, but I do recognize that some people will still get deterred if they’re being told to do something one specific way. So what do you think about that? Like facilities that offer multiple pathways or recognize that there’s multiple pathways to recovery.

Robert Marino: Oh, I love that, and I think that’s how it should be done. So even with rolling hills. Recovery Center, we

Robert Marino: you’re coming in, and you’re we’re putting together a treatment plan. That is evidence based for you. So this is, you know, psychotherapy, that that approach. But then we also have the options to go to outside Aana meetings, where we take all of our clients in the evening. So that’s we will set people up with smart recovery, and whatever the the solution, they they try to go that path. So yeah, no, we’re not closed off to any of those different treatment modalities at all. No.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, I think that that’s awesome. And so once someone has, I don’t know if you all call it graduate or completing the program, I think different facilities call it different things, but once someone finishes their 30 days, what’s next for them?

Robert Marino: So before they’re even.

Robert Marino: So, we have a 2 week discharge plan that we put together for an individual. So what 2 weeks before we know they’re about to discharge. We’re already working on what their next steps are going to be. And what does that look like so? And and what what I mean by that is.

Robert Marino: are they doing, Aarna? Can we find them? The list of all the local meetings in their town, their neighborhood? Are they continuing with a 1-on-one therapist. When they get out to continue the talk therapy, we’ll set them up with that. Meds, are they continuing? Do they need a psychiatrist to be able to go continue their medication, monitoring and prescribing. You know our alumni app.

Robert Marino: Beautiful thing! You know, we have so many people that are a member of our alumni community to where, you know, we have a chatter feature in there to where they engage with each other sobriety trackers meeting lists. There’s all kinds of different features within it, but they get to stay, get to stay connected with the community, and they get to help to have that extra layer of accountability when they 1st leave out of the program. And it’s such a beautiful thing.

Robert Marino: We once a month have our alumni meetings, and it’s it’s awesome when we see, you know, 30, 40 alumni come back and speak to the current clients in the program. Right? Because it shows them that. Hey, this is possible to stay sober. Once you walk out of the doors of a program. So we’re pretty serious about putting together that aftercare plan for them.

Jessica Dueñas: I love that. So I have. I love the alumni aspect of it. You know I don’t live in Kentucky anymore, which is where I did. Most of the treatment facility stays that I did, but I think, like the I still am actually really good friends. With one person I went to treatment with. And so the last time I was in treatment

Jessica Dueñas: there was in the summer of 2020. So you know, I’ve been friends with someone for 5 years that I was there in that residential treatment program with. And there’s something there’s something really special about the connection that you make with someone that you were in this space in right, like you walk in and you’re a disaster and you walk out.

Jessica Dueñas: You’re still a mess, right? But it’s like you’ve got a plan in place, and you you’re feeling hopeful for the future. And there’s something really special about that. So I love that you all have an alumni group, so folks can stay in touch with one another. I think that’s important.

Robert Marino: Because, you know, and that’s a part of this long term recovery, you know, because going to treatment in my experience is not a silver bullet right? Just because I go away for 30 days doesn’t mean that I’m cured of this thing. You know. I still need to do something something when I get out right. Whatever that looks like for you or the individual is what you need to continue on a day-to-day basis.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And I’m so glad that you mentioned the. It’s not a magic bullet thing. So for anyone listening again for those of you who know or don’t know from my story. I have been hospitalized about 7 or 8 times in the year of 2020, while I was trying to get sober, and all my different hospitalizations were a combination of either detox days, like, you know, 5 to 7 days up through the residential treatment facility, which was a 35 day visit.

Jessica Dueñas: and I promise you that every time that I landed back in a facility I was really pissed off at myself, and really frustrated and wanted to give up. But at the end of the day I knew that for me to give up would eventually mean dying, and so I just had to keep going, no matter how many times it took and back. Then I was super embarrassed that I had gone into hospitalization settings. What like 7 or 8 times. I don’t even remember it was really embarrassing back then.

Jessica Dueñas: But nowadays, when I say that I went to treatment, that many times I realize that it makes other people feel less ashamed of what they’re going through when they realize that they’re stumbling. So I’m so glad, Robert, that you mentioned that that going to treatment one time may not fix it all for some people it does, and they’re very fortunate. But some people it’s gonna take what it takes, and it might look messy, and it might look like a couple repeat visits. It doesn’t mean that the facilities want you

Jessica Dueñas: back, but if that’s what you need to do sometimes. That is what you have to do.

Robert Marino: You know what was one of the drivers for me, for continuing right after treatment was, I experienced something that I have not experienced probably, since I was a little kid. Joy, right? Happiness

Robert Marino: because I was dead on the inside. What we do is we have recreational therapy that we do, too. It’s not an actual therapeutic being overseen by clinicians.

Robert Marino: but they’re therapeutic activities. So we’ll take our clients, rock wall climbing, zip lining. They drove like the Nascar racing and like go karts around racetracks, movie night bowling. You know, whatever there’s a ton of different activities that we do. But this is to help show individuals that

Robert Marino: life is not over. You can still have fun. Right? You can tap back into the things that you’ve once loved in the past, like even through our art. You know we have a lot of clients that come in, and they are gifted right. They know how to draw. They know how to play musical instruments through the creative therapies, and you know they tap back into that. And then we have clients that leave, and then they continue to do that leisure activity that we took them out on when they were in treatment with us. You know we had one client that said that he hasn’t laughed like that in 10

Robert Marino: years. Imagine that you know life was so bad that you just couldn’t even laugh that hard for 10 years, and then you had to come out of that shell and get involved with others. And these fun activities to be able to have that experience that was a driver for me to keep going.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Speaking of joy, i. 1 of my favorite memories from being in my residential program was that we did have. They did let the residents. They would call them residents at this place. If we wanted to like, organize something, we could organize it right? So the staff was like the staff was supportive of it, but we kind of had to do it on our own. So me and this friend who I’m mentioning that I was in treatment with. We decided it would be really fun to do a karaoke night and like try to figure

Jessica Dueñas: it out. So one of the techs who worked at the facility she brought in a karaoke machine, and I had only ever in my life done karaoke drunk, and I only ever I never even remember doing karaoke all the years that I did karaoke, even though I loved it, and I remember being terrified to like

Jessica Dueñas: use the mic and just sing. And I did it, and I remember being like

Jessica Dueñas: holy shit. I can do this like I can do this sober right and like you said it opened the door so like now I’ve been sober almost 5 years, God willing, in November, and like I’ll do karaoke without a heart like I’m stumbling with my words. I will do, Karaoke, no matter what like. I don’t need to drink to do it, but I think that those are big Aha! Moments that people deserve to get that. They forget that they’re capable of those things. And so, myth busting.

Jessica Dueñas: I feel like we maybe touched a little bit on one myth right? That, like you go to treatment, and it can be totally boring, and it can be but a facility like yours clearly has a lot of engaging things going on for residents or clients. But what is a myth that you think needs to be busted right now about treatment facilities. What would you say.

Robert Marino: That life, that life is over right, that that’s the biggest thing that that I

Robert Marino: you’ve lost. Hope you have not like this. Just getting anywhere is a good start, right? And even though we were just talking about, you know, some facilities are not, as you know, great or up to par as other facilities. But you know my experience was, you know, like I said, I got sober in an indigent, homeless shelter program, but I was willing to go to any lengths, because I was so sick of the way that I was living.

Robert Marino: you know. Don’t let anything be a deterrent from getting into treatment at least starting the process. You know. I think that you know the biggest myth is that if I go to treatment that it’s not going to do anything for me.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Yeah. And you know that idea of if I go to treatment, my life is over. No, your life is over. If your addiction takes your life from you like you’re still alive. Go to treatment and then live the rest of your life. But you know, if you just sit there, continuing to drink until you develop, you know, some complication from your alcohol use, or if you have like, a drug overdose or something like that, that’s when your life is really over, and then you leave everyone behind heartbroken. So I think, like you said, life is not over just because you’re going to treatment. That’s almost the beginning of like the next part of your life.

Jessica Dueñas: So my my last question for you, Robert, is, if someone listening is unsure of whether they’re quote unquote, bad enough to go. What would you say to them?

Robert Marino: As far bad enough to come to the program or.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, like, it’s like, I don’t think I’m bad enough to go to treatment. I don’t know, you know, if that’s kind of like what someone’s.

Robert Marino: You know, that’s not a mindset to be in, you know. If if you need treatment, make the phone call, you need treatment right? It’s there is. No, I’m worse off, or what we see the most is not that I’m bad enough, but not that I’m not bad enough, right? My story is not like these other people’s. That’s the one that it gets gets hidden a little bit because it’s the it’s the I have a 3. I have 2 cars in the garage. I have a family.

Robert Marino: right? And and I don’t know that I have that problem, that that’s the thing right. But and what we were talking about before. But am I that present family member? Am I that present parent? Right is is my. Does my wife and my husband communicate with me, or do they just go straight to bed every single night without talking to me

Robert Marino: right now? These are things to identify.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And I’m so glad that you mentioned like, yeah, I might have the 2 car garage. I might still have my family. I might still have a really good job. You all listening, we should know by now. Addiction does not discriminate. And so, just because you might have all the nice things. It does not mean that you don’t need help. There’s this quote that I love, and I’m going to pull it up. It’s from Laura Mccowan who wrote the memoir. We are the luckiest, and she wrote.

Jessica Dueñas: the normal question is, is this bad enough for me to have to change? The question we should be asking is, Is this good enough for me to stay the same?

Jessica Dueñas: And the real question underneath it all is, Am I free? Right? So y’all can have the 2 car garage. You can have the beautiful spouse. You can have the beautiful children, but if at the end of the day you are not free from whatever substance is holding you back. Then that is worth making a phone call and getting an assessment done at a treatment facility, whether it be the ones that Robert facilitates, or something closer to home to you all.

Jessica Dueñas: Go ahead.

Robert Marino: Anywhere, get any.

Robert Marino: Yeah, yeah

Robert Marino: program, you know. And I just want to say this, too, because this is one of the things that slips by people is that.

Robert Marino: you know this is a little bit more prevalent for drug addiction and alcoholism. But, like, you know, smoking, crack, or doing, heroin is not normal behavior. Right? Let’s just.

Jessica Dueñas: No.

Robert Marino: That that’s what needs to be registered. This is not normal. Okay? And then the faster somebody can say that to themselves, I think that they can get put on that trajectory to trying to get help. Alcohol is a little bit more cunning, because, you know, and one of the ways that I found to identify. This was once I once I start drinking. Can I stop right? Can I control my drinking? If I cannot control my drinking? It may be time to reach out to somebody.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, I love that you said the alcohol. What is it that they say in Aa alcohol is cunning, baffling, powerful. But yeah, I mean it really is. It’s sneaky as hell. Why? Because it’s legal. So you can buy this highly addictive substance as long as you’re over 21. No issue no problem. You can buy as much as much of it as you want to. But people don’t realize how addictive it is. People don’t realize how dangerous it is, and it’s so normalized and it’s embedded into every

Jessica Dueñas: part of society. It’s like, if you’re happy, you drink. If you’re struggling, you drink, and so absolutely, it is really sneaky. And it is cunning. And so just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s okay for you. If you have the red flags coming up. If you’re noticing, like, Robert said, that you want to stop and you can’t stop if you’re noticing that you’re hiding your drinking from loved ones because you don’t want to get judged right. A lot of us have this natural intuitive sense that

Jessica Dueñas: something is wrong, and we’d like to ignore it because we want to continue with the drinking. But yeah, you don’t have to continue being trapped.

Jessica Dueñas: So, Robert, how do people either follow you or follow your treatment facilities or your programs like, if people wanted to know more, where can they find out more about you or your programs.

Robert Marino: Absolutely. You know, we have big followings on all major social media platforms. You can go on Youtube, see videos about our program, client testimonials, virtual tours, Walkthrough, of the program from our leadership standpoint, and you can also visit us at rollinghillsrecoverycenter.com, or you can call us directly at (973) 606-9170. And that’s 24 HA day. We have admissions, representatives standing by.

Jessica Dueñas: Okay, perfect. Well, Robert, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, I think again, this conversation was so important for listeners who are asking themselves the question like, Do I need to do more than what I’ve been doing any last words for listeners before we wrap up.

Robert Marino: Just get call. If if you think that you need help, at least make the phone call and just entertain the assessment with the individual. If it’s local in your neighborhood. If you called us, get somebody on the phone, please. That’s all that matters.

Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again, Robert, I really really appreciate your time today.

Robert Marino: Yeah, the pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much for having me.

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In this episode:

In this episode, I open up about breaking the cycle of people-pleasing, learning to trust discomfort as a boundary, and why I’ll never force my daughter to smile, hug, or perform for anyone. If you’ve ever silenced your inner “no” to keep the peace, this one’s for you.

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Transcript:

Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. For today’s episode, I want to talk about something I’ve been sitting with for a little bit of time now—as a mom, as a woman who grew up being told to perform for the sake of making other people comfortable, and also as someone in recovery.

Basically, I want to talk about the idea of not owing people our smile. And I know that sounds kind of random, but hear me out.

So, you probably know by now that I have a six-month-old daughter named Amara. And when I look at her, I see someone who feels deeply. Her full-body giggles light up a room—but only when she wants to. She is not generous with her smile, and she’s definitely not generous with her bubbly social energy. She keeps that for people like me or others she’s really close to.

And honestly, I’m okay with that. That’s exactly how I want it. I have no problems with her not being a big smiley baby to random strangers. In fact, it goes deeper than that for me.

I remember what it was like to be told to smile when I didn’t want to. I remember what it felt like to have my face, or my body, or my energy treated like it existed just to make other people feel better.

I grew up in New York—specifically Brooklyn—and by high school, I was commuting into Manhattan, taking the subway between boroughs. And if you’re a young teen girl in NYC, or honestly just a woman in general, you probably know where this is going.

I remember strange men telling me to smile. “Why are you looking so mean?” or “You’d be prettier if you smiled.” Like—first of all—I wasn’t even thinking. That was just my resting face. But they made me feel so uncomfortable, so unsafe. And I knew that if I challenged them, it could escalate. We all know from social media just how chaotic and unsafe the subway can be. So imagine being a teenager, hearing that kind of talk from grown men. It felt threatening, and I didn’t feel like I had the option to say anything back.

And it wasn’t just strangers on the subway. At home, I had family members who insisted on hugs, kisses, conversations that I didn’t feel like giving. And when I resisted, I was told I was being rude or too sensitive. Back then, I didn’t even have the language to say the word “boundary”—but that’s what I was trying to set.

Early on, I learned that compliance was praised. Resistance—even quiet resistance—was shamed. So I learned to smile when I didn’t want to. I stayed in rooms when I wanted to leave. I quieted that voice inside that said, “Something is off.”

There’s one moment that stands out. I was a teenager, and a male family member I hadn’t seen in years visited. He looked me up and down and said in Spanish, “Damn, you got fat.” Right in front of my parents. Then he actually asked me how much I weighed. A grown man, asking a teenage girl that question—and he really expected an answer. What hurt even more? No one stepped in. Not my parents, not the other adults. I felt hot with shame. My body felt like public property—something to be measured and commented on.

There were no boundaries. And no one helped create them for me either.

That kind of disconnection followed me into adulthood. And definitely into my drinking years. Because when you’re trained to ignore your discomfort, you lose the ability to trust your gut. You end up laughing when you’re uneasy. Staying quiet when you want to scream. You stay in jobs, relationships, conversations that drain you—because asserting your needs feels dangerous.

For years, I drank to silence the internal no I didn’t feel safe saying out loud. I didn’t want to rock the boat.

But sobriety has taught me something powerful: discomfort is not something to be ashamed of. Discomfort is often our body’s first signal that something isn’t right. It’s our body trying to protect us.

So yeah, setting boundaries is uncomfortable. Especially when it’s with someone I love, and I see the disappointment on their face. But it has been some of the most necessary healing work I’ve ever done.

Now I have a baby. And I get to break the cycle.

When I look at Amara, I don’t just see my daughter—I see a chance to do things differently.

Now, this next part might sound funny because I’m usually not into astrology, energy types, or human design. Normally, I scroll right past that stuff. But I did my own human design chart recently, and surprisingly, it actually made a lot of sense for me. So I decided to do Amara’s too.

According to her chart, she’s a “manifester,” which means she’s here to initiate—not follow. Her energy comes in bursts, and peace is sacred for her. One piece of advice I read was that when I see her experiencing frustration or going quiet, I should slow down and pay attention—because those are her signals.

Reading that really resonated. It reminded me of how important it is not to shape her into someone who’s convenient for the world. I want her to trust her inner voice before the world teaches her to ignore it.

So no, I’m not going to tell her to smile at strangers. I’ll find it incredibly charming that she’s serious. I won’t force her to hug people just because they’re family—honestly, I won’t hug them either. If she wants space, she’ll get it. If she feels uneasy, I’ll listen instead of dismissing her.

And when she does offer joy, I’m going to savor it. Because that means it came from her choice—not from being told to perform. And that’s a gift.

Amara’s not here to please. Yes, she pleases me, and yes, she entertains me—because she’s hilarious—but that’s not her job. Her job is to just be. Fully. Emotionally. And as her intuition grows, my job is to protect that.

There’s a quote I love by therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawwab. She says:

“It’s okay for a small child to set limits—like not eating meat or feeling uncomfortable around certain people. Parents who respect those boundaries make space for their children to feel safe and loved. When parents ignore those preferences, children feel lonely and like their needs don’t matter—and they’ll likely struggle with their boundaries as adults.”

And yeah, I know that struggle intimately. But just because that was my struggle doesn’t mean it has to be Amara’s. At the end of the day, the world can earn her smile. I’m not going to make her give it away.

Before I wrap up, I want to leave you with a few scenarios. Just some food for thought:

1. A Stranger on the Street
Imagine heading into work and someone calls out, “Smile!”—just like those men used to do to me. If you’re part of a marginalized group—whether you’re a woman, a person of color, queer—talking back isn’t always safe. Choosing silence is not a failure. It can be survival.
Ask yourself: How do I wish I could respond in a world where safety wasn’t an issue? Or How do I usually respond, and how do I feel afterward? Can you set a quiet boundary just for yourself?

2. Uncomfortable Family Comments
Let’s say someone makes a loud, unsolicited comment about your body or your life at a family gathering. What would it take for you to say, “That’s not okay with me”?
What systems—cultural, generational, emotional—make that difficult? And how can you protect yourself with compassion, even if you can’t speak up?

3. A Child Being Asked to Hug Someone
You’re with a child you love—maybe your own, maybe a niece or nephew—and someone says, “Come give me a hug,” but the child says no. You might feel pressure to encourage it, but pause.
Ask: What message are we sending the child if we override their choice?
What message do they receive if we say, “That’s okay—you don’t have to”?
How can we honor consent, even when it disrupts what we were taught?

Just some things to sit with. And remember:

Whatever your boundaries are, they don’t make you difficult.
Whatever discomfort you’re feeling—it’s not a flaw. It’s a signal.
You don’t have to perform for anyone.

So I’ll leave you with this question:
What part of you is still performing—to stay safe, or to create safety for yourself? And what would it feel like to stop—just for a moment—and choose yourself instead?

Alright, y’all. Thanks for being here with me today. If this resonated, share it with someone or leave a positive review. I’ll catch you next time.

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In this episode:

In this episode, I talk with debut author Jessica Guerrieri about her novel Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, a raw, honest story about addiction, motherhood, and recovery. We dive into why she chose fiction over memoir, how mommy wine culture harms more than it helps, and what it took for her to leave teaching.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed, stuck, or unsure how you got here, this one’s for you. Jessica’s story is a powerful reminder that healing is possible, alcohol can trap anyone, and you’re not alone.

Resources Mentioned by Jessica Guerrieri:

Buy Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea

Follow Jessica Guerrieri on Instagram

Visit Jessica Guerrieri’s site

Jessica Dueñas’s Resources:

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas:
Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. I’m really excited for today’s episode because we have a special guest: debut author Jessica Guerrieri. She’s a California-based writer, a mother of three, and the author of the new novel Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.

Fun fact — Jessica, like me, is also a former special education teacher. She left the classroom to pursue recovery, motherhood, and writing. She’s been sober for 12 years, and in her book, she writes about addiction and motherhood with such powerful honesty.

I’ve only been a mom for six months — those of you who listen know that — but there are so many things she explores in this novel that resonate deeply. The way she portrays relationships, motherhood, and the journey toward wholeness is just… beautiful.

Some of the women in my sobriety support meetings through The Luckiest Club have read this book and shared how much it moved them. So I’m truly honored to have the author here with us today. Welcome, Jessica!

Jessica Guerrieri:
So glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Jessica Dueñas:
Let’s start with your novel, Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. It offers such a layered portrayal of a woman navigating the weight of motherhood and alcohol addiction. What made you want to tell Leah’s story — and why now?

Jessica Guerrieri:
I wanted to write something really honest from the perspective of someone who made it to the other side of addiction. I’ve read a lot of books and memoirs, but I hadn’t found one that captured the gut punch I was trying to encapsulate — especially for moms.

We’re surrounded by mommy wine culture, and it’s been especially rampant during the pandemic. Ads were everywhere saying, “It’s 5 o’clock somewhere,” encouraging us to drink to cope. I wanted to show what happens when you follow that path all the way down — not to shame anyone, but to make moms feel less alone.

Jessica Dueñas:
Yes! One woman in my support group said reading your book was like looking in the mirror — every page felt uncomfortably familiar. That really speaks volumes. I also love that you essentially wrote the book you needed. That’s so powerful.

But I’m curious: why tell this story through fiction instead of memoir, especially when it’s so close to your lived experience?

Jessica Guerrieri:
That’s such a good question. I do have a memoir proposal that’s ready for submission — it’s an option my agent and I have discussed. But fiction felt safer, both for me and for the reader.

If you’re browsing the self-help aisle for books on addiction, you’re already on a journey. But if someone stumbles upon Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea while browsing women’s fiction, it can plant a seed. They may recognize pieces of themselves without feeling exposed or judged.

Fiction also allowed me to be creative — to explore different worlds like Half Moon Bay, which is my favorite beach community. My sister is a surfer, and I wanted to include that poetic connection to the ocean. So while Leah is absolutely based on me in some ways — we’re both 6’1”, for starters — I also had the freedom to create a new version of myself.

Jessica Dueñas:
Have people ever asked, “So… are you Leah?”

Jessica Guerrieri:
Oh, of course! And honestly, I do it to myself, too. Leah is definitely my shadow self. But one key difference is that I got sober before becoming a mom.

Still, during the pandemic, I explored other substances besides alcohol and realized — yep — if I can abuse it, I will. So while I didn’t drink during motherhood, I’ve experienced addiction in different forms. It all felt the same — that vortex that sucks the life out of you — and that’s what I wrote from.

Jessica Dueñas:
That’s so powerful. You wrote Leah’s addiction so viscerally that even knowing your background, I was convinced you had lived it exactly.

So many people think addiction only looks one way, or only happens to certain people. But your novel shows how layered and universal it can be. I love that you used fiction to give readers the space to explore it safely.

Jessica Guerrieri:
Exactly. Writing is my healthiest form of escape now — it’s my form of healing. Reading and writing have literally saved me. Fiction gives me that safe place to explore pain and possibility.

Jessica Dueñas:
I read your Huffington Post piece where you wrote about using alcohol to silence parts of yourself. When did you realize that silence wasn’t working anymore?

Jessica Guerrieri:
There’s a phrase in recovery: “Half measures availed us nothing.” I kept trying to moderate — switching from hard liquor to wine, counting drinks, making rules — and nothing worked.

I considered myself emotionally intelligent, but I couldn’t outsmart this. I couldn’t stop putting myself in humiliating situations.

One morning, I woke up, sick again, throwing up in the sink — because I’d learned that was better than the toilet. I looked in the mirror and didn’t recognize myself. And I heard this voice — maybe a hallucination — say, “Haven’t you had enough yet?”

And somehow, in that moment, I said, “Yes.” I told on myself. I told my husband, my friends, my family. That was my turning point.

Jessica Dueñas:
Thank you for sharing that. So many of us try to hide it or fix it on our own. But the shift comes when we speak the truth — when we finally say, “I need help.”

You also wrote about being an oversharer when drinking — how you’d tell anyone anything. What does healthy vulnerability look like for you now?

Jessica Guerrieri:
That’s something I had to learn. Vulnerability is still how I connect with people, but now it comes with boundaries. Before, I would overshare to be liked or to trauma-dump.

Now, I ask: is this a safe space? Am I sharing something personal, or something universal? Writing gives me a place to explore the universal truths that help people feel less alone — and that’s what I’m most passionate about.

Jessica Dueñas:
That makes so much sense. And speaking of writing — you’ve got a second book on the way! Is it a continuation of Leah’s story?

Jessica Guerrieri:
Nope! Totally new story. It’s called Both Can Be True and it’s told from the perspective of two estranged sisters who are brought back together by a missing woman. It still explores addiction and relationships, but this time I wanted to dig into long-term marriage and the deep friendships between women. It’s a different lens, but still rooted in recovery and connection.

Jessica Dueñas:
That sounds incredible. I’m so glad you’re continuing to write in ways that invite important conversations.

Before we wrap up, what’s one message you’d want to leave with a listener who feels stuck or ashamed of where they are right now?

Jessica Guerrieri:
You’re not alone. There is so much hope.

Twelve years ago, I was passing out every night, mixing alcohol with sleeping pills, and waking up to drink again. I was a shell of a person. But everything that I am today — a mom, a writer, someone who gets to travel and speak about recovery — it’s all because of sobriety.

Those parts of me were always there — they were just buried by addiction. You are not broken beyond repair. There is more waiting for you than you can possibly imagine.

Jessica Dueñas:
That is so beautiful. I was reminded of a quote by Laura McKowen, founder of The Luckiest Club. She says, “If you could see even a fraction of what’s possible for you, you would fall to your knees and cry.”

It’s so true. We just have to take that first brave step.

Before we go — where can people find you and your work?

Jessica Guerrieri:
You can find me on Instagram at @jessicaguerrieriauthor, and my website is jessicaguerrieri.net. You’ll find all my writing there — from the book to personal essays and even my old mom blog.

I’m also on TikTok @jessstaysober, but Instagram is the best place to connect.

Jessica Dueñas:
Awesome. And Jessica’s book, Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, is out now — you can find it anywhere books are sold, or request it at your local bookstore.

Jessica, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation.

Jessica Guerrieri:
Thank you! I loved being here.

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In this episode:

In this episode, I unpack the sneaky ways dopamine keeps us chasing more, whether it’s achievements, shopping, or relationships, and why it never actually brings peace. I share personal stories from my own recovery and offer reflection questions to help you step off the treadmill of ‘never enough.’

Resources:

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:
Hey y’all, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober.

Today we’re actually going to dive into something that I think every single one of us in recovery—or honestly, just in life—has experienced and can totally relate to: the chase.

You know what I’m talking about—thinking that the next drink, the next relationship, the next Amazon cart full of stuff, or the next accomplishment is going to finally make you feel okay.

Well, fun fact: our brains are actually kind of set up to trick us into believing that—even when it’s not true.

I recently shared the following quote in a sobriety support meeting, and it’s so powerful I had to bring it here too. I’m currently leading a book study on The Molecule of More by Daniel Lieberman and Michael Long. If you haven’t read it, I definitely recommend picking it up—it’s full of valuable insights.

Here’s the quote:
“Giving in to craving doesn’t necessarily lead to pleasure, because wanting is different from liking. Dopamine makes promises that it is in no position to keep. ‘If you buy these shoes, your life will change,’ says the desire circuit. And it just might happen—but not because dopamine made you feel it.”

Let that sink in. I want to unpack it a little.

Dopamine—it’s the brain chemical we all have. It drives desire, ambition, and craving. It motivates us to go after things. For a long time, people thought dopamine was linked to pleasure, but it’s actually not. It’s about the chase. The wanting. The desire.

So basically, dopamine says to your brain, “Hey! Look over there! That’s the answer to your emptiness.”
But what dopamine can’t do is deliver satisfaction. So once you get the thing you were chasing, you actually feel kind of flat. It doesn’t bring you peace. It doesn’t give you a sense of enoughness, even though you were sure it would.

Now, in active addiction, this is obvious. You crave a drink, you get the drink, and maybe for a split second—like 15 or 20 minutes—you feel relief. But it never lasts. And usually, you end up feeling worse.

What I’ve learned—and maybe you have too—is that just because we quit drinking doesn’t mean that pattern goes away. That behavior doesn’t magically disappear in sobriety.

Instead, the bottle often gets replaced with other dopamine-driven habits. We might find ourselves overeating—or obsessing over what we’re going to eat. Some of us fall into serial dating, desperate to feel wanted. Others go on shopping sprees they later regret. Or we overwork, overhelp, overachieve… even chase perfect recovery. (And if that last one resonates, check out my episode from last week!)

Here’s the thing: this dopamine-driven chase doesn’t just live in our past. It shows up in our present in really quiet, sneaky ways.

Let me paint a few pictures.

Dating apps.
You’re lying in bed at night, swiping through profiles. You’re not even sure what you’re looking for. You just want to feel something. Maybe it’s the buzz of a match or the ping of attention. But how do you feel after the date? Or after that fifth match fizzles out? You might actually feel lonelier.

Because what you wanted wasn’t just attention—you wanted connection.
And dopamine can’t give you that.

Achievement highs.
You’re doing great at work or school. You get that praise or encouraging message from your boss or professor. It feels amazing—for 10 minutes. Then you’re already spiraling about your next deadline. You don’t even get to enjoy your win because you’re already chasing what’s next.

Shopping spirals.
You’ve been two years sober. You’ve had a rough week. You walk into Target for one thing… and end up with a cart full of candles, notebooks, throw pillows—all promising comfort. But after checkout, loading up your car, you feel like crap. Like something’s still missing.

These are all examples of dopamine doing its job—pushing us toward more, pushing us toward the chase. But once we attain these things, they don’t bring us peace.

Because peace doesn’t live in the chase.

When we’re chasing, we’re not practicing gratitude.
We’re not practicing mindfulness.
We’re not present.

In my own life, a few months into early sobriety, I was convinced that if I could just get everything together, I’d feel better. Like, if I could become the most high-functioning sober woman ever, maybe I’d finally be okay.

So I started doing everything I saw other people doing: waking up at 5 a.m., journaling, meditating, exercising, eating clean, being of service, doing great at work—all while healing deep wounds from trauma and grief.

That’s… a lot. A lot, a lot.

And on paper, it looked like I was thriving. I was proud of myself. But I still felt exhausted and disconnected—almost like I did when I was drinking. Because I was trying to outrun my shame with sober achievements.

But I was still lonely. Still sad.
That’s when it hit me—especially after learning more about dopamine.
“Oh. I’m chasing that high. I’m chasing the gold stars.”
But none of it means anything if I don’t feel present in my own life.
If I can’t just sit with myself without trying to earn my worth, I’ll always struggle.

At the end of the day, I had to realize that:
Wanting is not the same as liking.
How many times have we wanted something badly, only to feel “meh” once we got it? Or worse, it didn’t fill the void at all?

That’s dopamine. Making promises it can’t keep.

But here’s the good news: once we recognize the pattern, we can interrupt it.

We can pause and ask:
“Does this feel urgent because it’s real?
Or is this just the high of the chase talking?”

When we start asking those questions, we can come back to ourselves.

And we can also ask, “How can I tell when I’ve actually had enough?”

For me, it’s in the quiet moments:
My daughter—she’s almost six months old now—has started laughing. And when she laughs, she doesn’t care about what she looks like or what anyone thinks. She’s just present.

Or when my dog Cruz curls up next to me.
Or when I write, just to get things off my chest—not to prove anything.
Or when I’m with people who love me, no matter what.

Those moments don’t spike my dopamine.
They anchor me.
They keep me grounded.

And look—it’s okay to want things.
Dopamine isn’t bad. It’s good to have goals. It’s good to feel motivated.

But it’s also important to remember: dopamine won’t give you peace.
Peace comes from being present.
From letting ourselves be enough right now.

Dopamine is future-based.
Peace is present-based.

So before we wrap up, here are a few questions for you to reflect on. If you’re journaling, feel free to pause and write them down:

1. Can you think of a time—either in active addiction or recovery—when chasing something left you feeling more empty than fulfilled? (It doesn’t have to be alcohol or your substance of choice.)
2. How do you notice the difference between wanting something and truly enjoying it?
3. What helps you recognize when you’ve already had enough? And how do you stay grounded in that feeling?

I hope those questions offer some guidance.

Thank you so much for spending time with me today.
And remember: if you’ve ever felt like you’re stuck on a treadmill of achievement or caught in the loop of “once I get this, then I’ll feel better”—you are not alone.
That is not a personal failure.
That’s just some funky brain chemistry.

But the good news is: you can get off the treadmill.
You can pause.
You can practice presence.

It takes effort—it’s not natural—but that’s where freedom lives.

Until next time, take care of yourselves.
Have a wonderful week. Bye.

---

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In this episode:

What if recovery isn’t a finish line, but a place we learn to live in? In this deeply personal episode, I sit down with journalist, professor, and author Mallary Tenore Tarpley to talk about her upcoming book, SLIP: Life in the Middle of Eating Disorder Recovery.

Mallary shares how losing her mother at age 11 shaped her relationship with food, and why chasing “full recovery” can sometimes feel like chasing a mirage.

We dive into the often-overlooked “middle place” of healing, that space between crisis and full recovery, and why slips aren’t signs of failure, but invitations to grow, reflect, and extend compassion to ourselves. If you’re navigating sobriety, disordered eating, or any kind of recovery, this conversation is a heartfelt reminder that healing isn’t linear, and you’re not alone.

Resources Mentioned:

⁠Pre-Order Slip Today!⁠

Follow Mallary on ⁠Instagram⁠ and ⁠Substack⁠

Jessica’s Resources:

⁠Six-Week Writing for Healing Program Is Open for Enrollment!⁠

⁠Coaching Information⁠

⁠Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

00:03 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Hi everyone, welcome back. I am so glad to have a special guest here today. We have author Mallary Tenore Tarpley, who’s a professor, journalist, speaker and also the author of the upcoming book Slip Life in the Middle of Eating Disorder Recovery. Any of you who have been listening to my work and my story know that I have a complicated relationship with food. About one third of people who struggle with substance use disorder of some kind also have complex relationships with food, and so I’m really excited to have Mallary on today so that she can speak to her book, speak to her lived experience and hopefully you all get some good nuggets out of this conversation. So welcome, mallary, so glad to have you. Thank you so much. Some good nuggets out of this conversation. So welcome, mallary, so glad to have you.

00:47 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited, awesome.

00:50 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Awesome. Well, let’s go ahead and let’s dive in. So I know that your upcoming book specifically centers on the idea of this quote unquote middle place in eating disorder recovery. Can you kind of share what that means, what it means to you and why it’s so often kind of just overlooked?

01:08 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yes, definitely so. The middle place is this name that I’ve given to this liminal space between acute sickness and full recovery from an eating disorder, but I think it can apply to recovery from addiction and recovery from mental health illnesses. And so, for me, I was in treatment for anorexia nervosa when I was a teenager and cycled in and out of the hospital and residential treatment, where I stayed for about 17 months, and so was in treatment for quite a while. And when I left I really felt like I needed to achieve the gold standard in the eating disorder field, which is full recovery. And yet it wasn’t until many years later that I learned that even the field has not yet arrived at a consensus definition of what full recovery even means.

01:54

And in our society, which is just steeped in diet culture and fat phobia, the notion of full recovery can seem quite murky and difficult to wrap our heads around. And so for about two years I was living out a life that felt kind of equivalent to full recovery, and I felt like I wanted to be the poster child for full recovery, so left residential treatment, went back home, went right back into my junior year of high school and was eating well and exercising. And president of the National Honor Society and graduated top of my class and was doing all of the things and was really sort of thought of as the recovered girl. But then when I went to college I fell into this very vicious cycle of binging and restricting my food intake and really felt like at the time I was struggling and failing at both recovery and at anorexia and I didn’t quite know what it was that I was struggling and failing at both recovery and at anorexia and I didn’t quite know what it was that I was struggling with. It seemed like some new manifestation of my eating disorder, but I struggled with that for about 10 years in silence and felt a lot of shame around the fact that I was still struggling, and in public I was living under the guise of someone who was fully recovered. So it was very much hiding the struggles that I had.

03:06

And it wasn’t until I began working for a nonprofit where I was helping journalists to tell more stories about the messy middle of recovery and the aftermath of trauma and tragedy that I realized that that could actually be a really helpful framework for my own recovery story, and so I began to think about the fact that in recovery, slips are bound to happen, which is why I titled my book Slip, because for the longest time, I thought that slips were something to be hidden, something to be ashamed of. And now, as I live my life in the middle place, I realize recovery is possible. But slips often happen, and they don’t have to be grounds for failure. They can be opportunities for growth.

03:47

And so I talk about being in recovery as opposed to being fully recovered, because I think it’s still today something that I need to work on. And lastly, I’ll just say that for a long time, I thought I was the only one in this middle place, but I surveyed about 700 people for my book and did almost 200 interviews, and of the 700 people I interviewed, 85% said that they could relate to this idea of the middle place. And in the eating disorder space, this middle place is often not talked about, and so my hope is that I can give voice to people who find themselves in this space, because it is quite populous.

04:25 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

I’m so glad that you are speaking to that. This week with the current news cycle, I was in conversation with someone who is currently struggling with maintaining continuous sobriety as they navigate the ups and downs of what’s happening in the world, and this individual was really giving themselves such a hard time and I was like listen first of all. Like you know, like yay, Continuous sobriety is great, Like that. That’s what I experienced and I’m very grateful for having continuous sobriety. But I was like the fact that you go weeks, months without a drink and then you have a slip. I was like let’s practice some compassion here. Let’s talk about the fact that you’re giving your body massive breaks from alcohol and let’s talk about the fact that you’re still constantly striving to take care of yourself and we don’t celebrate that.

05:17

I think in sobriety spaces we often only look at wins.

05:21

We consider those to be like 30 days, 90 days, 60 days a year, X amount of years and like, while, again, the more time away from a drink for a person struggling with alcohol addiction is great, there’s so many other huge wins to be considered in someone’s life beyond, just like days passing on a calendar Right.

05:40

And so you know for this friend who has noticed that when sometimes a drink happens during turmoil in the world, I feel like, absolutely, yeah, it’s an opportunity to look at, well, what are my stressors, what are my triggers? Let me get curious and maybe let’s see how I can handle the next time I’m set off by the news cycle, maybe a little bit differently as opposed to you know, absolutely like, just, I always say poo-pooing on ourselves. You know, when we, when we have a slip, cause we’re, we’re human Right and so I, I love that you, you speak to that. I think that that’s important. So when you speak of the middle place, how do you feel like that impacts your compassion to yourself versus before, when you were striving to be like this poster child of recovery?

06:23 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yeah. So you raised so many good points. And previously when I would slip, I always thought, well, I’ve blown it, so I might as well just continue down this path. So if, for instance, there was a day when I would binge, I would think, okay, well, I’ve blown it, so now then whole next day, I need to restrict. And it would just perpetuate this cycle. So it seems like every time I had a slip it would turn into a slide to the point where I really did relapse in college.

06:50

And now when I think about slips, I try to give myself a lot more grace and I try to recognize that these are part of the process.

06:58

I may slip I’m most likely going to slip from time to time, but I need to be able to use that as an opportunity to say okay, what happened, why did this happen? How can I get back up again? And it’s interesting because when I was interviewing someone for the book who was an eating disorder clinician, she had said well, I wouldn’t title the book slip, because that word has a really negative connotation in our field. And I said well, that’s precisely the point. Right, I want to remove the stigma and shame around that word, because even if you think about that word slip it in and of itself defines or suggests some sort of movement, right, because you can’t slip if you’re standing still, and so I now think about slips as being really something that can provide opportunities for growth, and certainly reframing my thinking around. That has been really helpful in terms of my own movement forward, knowing that this remains this ongoing kind of journey for me.

07:56 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

I love that and you know, when you talk about the slip and the movement, I kind of envision, you know, say, the athlete who might be running a race and obviously there might be times when they trip or they fall, or a child learning to walk or learning to run. They’re going to have to slip sometimes, but that’s the only way that they’re going to get better and master the art of the basic walk Right or master the art of like running. It is going to be through those tumbles, Like they’re. They’re absolutely necessary. So I appreciate that perspective. Now you mentioned slip and then you also mentioned the word relapse and I’m always curious because I I’m a firm believer that everyone has to kind of define those terms for themselves on their own journey. So I’m curious in your journey, what is a slip to you versus a relapse, yeah.

08:39 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

So I think that that is a really important distinction and it’s something I’ve given a lot of thought to, because when I was in treatment in the late 1990s, these words really did not come up, so we didn’t talk about slips or lapses or relapses, at least in sort of the treatment centers that I was in.

08:56

But I like to think about slips as blips in the road to recovery, and they’re common and inevitable, and yet they’re often stigmatized in the eating disorder fields, which really persistently pushes for full recovery.

09:09

But slips occur when someone’s trying to make meaningful progress, because, again, you can’t really slip if you’re standing still. And so for me the goal is to really sort of recognize the slip and learn from it so that it doesn’t turn into this slide or relapse. And when I think about relapse, I think that it’s more so a repetitive pattern of eating disorder thoughts and behaviors with an inability to get back on track, and so I think that we move from a slip to a lapse to a relapse. Often the relapse is going to require perhaps higher levels of care, because it’s sort of a situation in which you really are stuck in these repetitive behaviors without seeing a way out of them. So I think it’s important to recognize the differences between the slip and the relapse, because certainly slips can lead to relapses, but they don’t always have to, and that’s something that’s been really important for me to just recognize in my own recovery.

10:04 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

I love that. That’s to me super clear and I hope anybody listening finds that helpful. You know, as you all, as listeners, navigate your own definitions. I wanted to switch up and kind of talk a little bit about grief. I know it’s just kind of like reading about you a little bit.

10:19

I learned I’m so sorry to hear for the loss, but that you experienced the loss of your mother fairly young, I want to say, maybe you were about 11 years old or so and I know in one of the interviews that I watched about you you shared that your disordered eating pretty much began after that loss, and so I’m just curious to learn a little bit about how grief did shape your path and then, kind of, how do you manage your grief now? I think, like a lot of us, what we realize when we step into recovery, we are grieving a lot of different things. Some of us it might be actual losses of people that we loved. Sometimes it is the loss of a lifestyle, but there is a lot of loss that happens when we start healing, and so I’d love to kind of hear how you are doing with your grief now, what it was like back then and where you are now with it.

11:08 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yeah, it’s something that I care a lot about and I write a lot about it and slip, because my mother’s sickness and death really did kind of lead me to develop an eating disorder. Death really did kind of lead me to develop an eating disorder. So my mom was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer when I was eight and she was sick for about three years and at the time my family’s way of coping was to always believe that she was going to be okay. So we used to refer to her as a soldier in a battle and as the little engine that could, and we would always say she’s going to get to the top of the mountain, she’s going to be fine, and we maintained that storyline even as my mom got sicker and sicker and even when the cancer had metastasized to her bone marrow and her liver and her brain.

11:52

And in writing my book I went back and I was able to retrieve my mother’s old medical records and it was very clear in looking at them that my mom wasn’t going to make it. But my father in particular really wanted to hold on to hope, and I did too, as my father’s daughter, and so when she died it really did feel like this complete shock. So she was 40 and I was 11. And I thought, as just a natural perfectionist, that the way for me to handle this was to pretend that I was okay and to sort of perfectly quote unquote grieve. And so I went to school the very next day after my mom passed away and I wrote a eulogy for her funeral which I read without crying and really tried to kind of put on this happy face, but inside it felt like my whole world had crumbled and I didn’t know how to grapple with that. And the more time passed, the farther away I felt from my mother, and so I found myself really wanting to stop time. And around this same time I was in a seventh grade health class where we were learning about good foods quote unquote and bad foods, and learning about how to eat healthy and how to avoid unhealthy foods, and some of these sort of lessons really started to stick in my mind and I began to conjure up this idea that maybe, if I stayed the same size I was when my mom was alive, I could somehow be closer to her, and so I began to restrict my food intake, and it was almost this warped form of time travel. So for me, the eating disorder was never about being skinny, but more so about being small and feeling like I was closer to my mom somehow.

13:31

And of course the irony of eating disorders is that we think they’re going to give us one thing and yet they completely take that away from us right, similar sometimes to addiction. So my eating disorder really gave me no control. It sort of stripped me of all of my control and it made me feel farther away from my mother than ever before. So it wasn’t until I was in residential treatment that I really began to grieve the loss of my mother’s death. And for the couple of years that I was in treatment before that I still really was kind of denying the seriousness of her death. And for the couple of years that I was in treatment before that I still really was kind of denying the seriousness of her death. And wasn’t until I was in treatment for a longer period of time that I was able to really kind of grapple with that loss.

14:11

And that was a huge part of my own recovery was just being able to explore the origins of my eating disorder more and come to terms with the ways in which I thought my eating disorder more and come to terms with the ways in which I thought my eating disorder would make me closer to my mom, but the ways that it ultimately drew me farther away from her. And so when I think about grief now, I think about it a lot in terms of this idea of the middle place, because for a long time I thought of it as something linear and I think that for many years that was the mindset, because we would have the five stages of grief and it sort of was this idea that okay, you go through these five stages and then you reach this finish line and you’re fine, and I had that mentality for such a long time. But when I think about it now, I realized that I still in many ways mourn the loss of my mother. I still think about her all the time and there are stretches where I won’t cry for weeks or months and then sometimes something will happen in my life that reminds me of her and it’s just a waterfall, right, I just start crying and I’m thinking about her.

15:13

And so in regard to this idea of the middle place, I think that in a lot of ways grief is ongoing, just like recovery can be, and the load of that loss is much lighter than it once was for me, but I still carry it right. It’s still there, and so I don’t know that I’ll ever arrive at some sense of closure when it comes to my mom’s death, but it’s easier to grapple with. And I will just say, too, that this book is going to be published in August, and I just turned 40, and that’s the same age my mom was when she passed away. So I’ve been thinking a lot about these questions of what does it mean to outlive your mother and what does it mean to begin this next phase of life your mother never got to experience. So in many ways it feels like just this ultimate way of honoring my mother’s memory to be putting this book out into the world at this really significant moment in time.

16:05 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Oh, that’s so powerful. And you know, when you mentioned the five stages of grief, I’m so glad that you mentioned that because I also feel like the five stages of grief totally had me fooled into thinking that it was a linear journey and that we eventually just get over our losses. And, honestly, I find more peace in knowing that I’m just, it’s something I’m just going to carry right, like the losses that we have been dealt, it’s something that we learn to live with. You know, we get stronger as time passes, but it doesn’t mean that you know that pain doesn’t just go away. And you know, I feel like the idea of closure. There’s so many times that we’re always like having this entitlement, like I deserve closure, I deserve closure, and I don’t know who taught us that we’re supposed to just always have, you know, closure, but we really don’t get closure from a lot of things. And it’s like learning to navigate the uncomfortable, the murky waters is so important. So I’m just glad that you speak to that. I’m glad you speak to that in your book.

17:03

Was there a moment? You know, I think like, especially when we talk about grief and loss and pain, you know, I do think that those losses can crack us open sometimes, but was there a specific moment when you were like I can’t keep coping this way, I can’t keep trying to keep myself small? You mentioned that things started when you were 11. And then in college you basically it it. College is when you ended up in the residential treatment facility. Is that correct? Was my timeline right?

17:28 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Um, so I was in the hospital as a teenager and in residential treatment, and then left, went back to high school, thought I was fully recovered, and then in college is when I relapsed. Yeah, okay, gotcha.

17:39 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Gotcha, I was fully recovered, and then in college is when I relapsed. Yeah, okay, gotcha, gotcha. So was there any moment when you realized that you couldn’t keep doing these same behaviors anymore, when they were just no longer sustainable for you?

17:49 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yeah, so a big part of it for me, I think, was actually meeting my husband, because for me, in some ways, it made it so much harder to just keep the eating disorder a secret, because for a long time I kept thinking, well, I’m just going to keep dealing with these behaviors for the rest of my life and I’ll just keep hiding them. Um, but when I met my partner now husband I realized, okay, I need to be able to be vulnerable, I need to be able to share what I’m going through with him, with hopes that he won’t turn away from me and leave me if I tell him this. And so, because we were spending so much time together and because so many social outings involve food, of course, I needed to be really open and honest with him about what I was struggling with. And he was one of the first people I really did confide in after sort of having been stuck in this cycle of binging and restricting. And for me, what was fascinating is that being vulnerable with him and sharing my story did not make him run away.

18:51

In some ways, I feel like it drew me closer to him, because he realized that I was willing to share my story with him, that I wanted him to be part of my recovery, that I trusted him enough to be able to tell him what I was grappling with, and around that time is when I was also beginning to develop this idea of the middle place, and so it was really interesting to see this middle place framework come into play at the same time that I was beginning to kind of engage in this more serious relationship. And so those two things combined, I think, made me realize, okay, I need to be able to carve a better pathway forward for myself, particularly as I started to think about the future and wanting to one day have kids, and so there was just more at stake. It felt like at that point in my life and this was when I was in my late twenties and I felt like, hmm, do I really want to be stuck in these behaviors for the rest of my life? Right? And so I began to kind of think about how do I make meaningful progress forward, knowing that it is not going to be perfect?

20:00 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

You know there are two things jump out at me with your response there, like. The first one is you know, I think about people in recovery from addiction and dating and how they’re. You know we navigate getting into relationships and that fear of the rejection when we tell somebody by the way, I have this history right and one thing I always like to remind folks about that, especially if it’s a sobriety support meeting or someone I’m working with one-on-one, I’m like listen, the right person for you is not going to be turned away by your history. Right, be yourself, show yourself fully and if you repel someone good, you did yourself a favor because that person was not for you in the first place, and so I love that you shared that. You realized like I’ve got a lot at stake. I’ve got these big dreams for my future and I can’t do it if I keep this a secret.

20:52

But the second thing, too, that jumped out at me from your share right now also is the idea of letting people in right and how a lot of whether it’s disordered eating or addictive behaviors right, like so much of those behaviors, I feel like they thrive, like the best soil for them is a secret, like put it in a corner, away, somewhere from where you can hide it, and that’s really where they thrive, and I think that you know there’s so many people you mentioned that you were very successful, right like on the outside.

21:23

I think so many people can achieve so much on the outside, whether it be career, educationally, things with family, etc. And still be struggling in secret, and that can be so scary, it can be even deadly sometimes for folks. And so, kind of pivoting into sort of like the next thing, I wanted to talk a little bit more about letting others in. I know that you make reference to learning to ask for help, and so I mean you made mention of your husband, your partner, now husband. But what was a big moment for you where letting someone in kind of was a game changer for you?

22:01 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

So for me I mean being able to talk with my husband, I think was what then prompted me to be able to go back to therapy and to actually try to make progress in my recovery. Because once you tell someone, then you begin to sort of realize that you can maybe trust other people with your story as well. And as a writer, I’ve always been sort of someone who likes to share my story, and for a long time I was talking about my eating disorder in different personal essays that I would write or in blog posts, but I was writing them from the perspective of someone who’s fully recovered. And once I started to meet my husband and really explore the middle place framework, I began to experiment with writing more about where I was actually at in my recovery and trying to really sort of embrace the messiness of my ongoing recovery. And so being able to share my story openly through the written word was incredibly healing for me. I always say that writing is not therapy, but it can be therapeutic, and so the sharing of my story through the written word and sort of coordination with talking with my husband and with the therapist, I think was really helpful for me, because I will say that for a long time my eating disorder, especially when I was in this binge restrict cycle.

23:21

It did feel like an addiction in some ways, and I also had struggled with obsessive compulsive disorder and so was very obsessive about exercising and was exercising all the time.

23:33

That felt addictive in some ways, and I don’t use that term lightly because in the eating disorder field there’s a lot of sort of tension around this word addiction.

23:43

Some clinicians believe that eating disorders are a form of addiction, others believe that they’re not. But I defer to the many people, myself included, who have felt at times like the exercise obsessions and the eating disorder is an addiction. And so I think for me, being able to really be more open about my story and get it out in public, right through the essays I was writing and other platforms, that helped me to just feel like I could let go of some of these behaviors that for so long had felt like they had really just taken over me. So for me it was really healing in a lot of ways to be able to share my story more openly, and in doing so I began to hear from lots of other people who said, oh, I can see myself reflected in your story, and for me that is the highest compliment right when sort of me sharing my story empowers other people to feel seen and heard.

24:41 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Absolutely. It’s always helpful to know how you got through or how you are navigating something, because we never know who who’s hearing our story or who’s reading it. You know, and when you mentioned kind of like feeling those compulsive, like urges for different behaviors, you know, that resonates a lot with me, I think, for for a lot of us recovering, say, from alcohol addiction, I think sometimes we find that we may stop drinking and then we’re suddenly catching ourselves really struggling with other behaviors and it’s almost like this sort of like whack-a-mole experience that happens, like you might put down the drink but it means that we still have a lot of work to do in general, right, and so oftentimes for us it’s like removing the alcohol from our lives just kind of opens the door for the real work that needs to start at that point. So I really appreciate you speaking to that. So, with that said, what do you say to people who are scared to open up?

25:57 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

no-transcript. Sometimes people are afraid to share their story because they think, well, I need to find a therapist in order to do that, and they’re feeling like it seems like there’s so many barriers to being able to access care and so I just can’t manage that right now, so I’m just going to continue with these behaviors. I thought that way for a long time because, especially with eating disorders, it can be really hard to find trained clinicians, let alone ones who take insurance, and so I think sometimes that can be a deterrent, and I would say don’t let that be a deterrent. Sometimes just finding a friend or a family member who you trust can really go a long way, and that’s not to say you shouldn’t eventually try to seek professional help. But I think sometimes just being able to open up and to share a small part of yourself and to be really honest about where you’re at in your struggles or in your recovery can then make it easier to begin opening up to more people over time. And I think that the more that we can share who we are and what our recovery is like, the better, because in many cases I think that there is just a lot preventing people from being really open and honest about where they’re at.

27:12

So, for instance, in the eating disorder fields there are these very common terms and they are quasi-recovery and pseudo-recovery, and those essentially are terms that the eating disorder field has used for a long time to describe people who are kind of supposedly better but who are still struggling a lot.

27:31

And for a long time I was afraid of being accused of being someone who was engaging in pseudo recovery or quasi recovery, and now I actually think those terms are quite harmful because they suggest in some ways that recovery is fake or that it’s just not real. I think that those are probably more apt terms for someone like me who years ago, sort of told everyone I was fully recovered but in fact I was really struggling, and so I think it’s really harmful when we use those terms to describe people who are kind of in this murky middle where they’re not fully recovered but they’re trying to work on their recovery. So I always say recovery is real and it’s really important for everyone to recognize that, and recovery takes shape differently. And so I would just say don’t let sort of stigmatized terms or ideas about what recovery is or isn’t stand in your way of being able to authentically share your story.

28:27 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

I love that. Now, how do you determine who’s like a safe person to go to? Like let’s pretend this is Mallary. Many years ago, when you weren’t openly writing essays right and publishing a book, how would you have determined? Like, how did you know, for example, that your future husband was a safe person to speak to about this?

28:47 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

So with him. I needed to take some time to get to know him, but pretty soon and pretty early on knew that he was someone I could trust because he made me feel loved. I never had to question does he like me, does he want to be with me? It was just something that he always communicated to me, that he enjoyed being with me, that he wanted to spend time with me, that he cared for me.

29:13

I think previously I’d been in just sort of these kind of semi relationships, if you will. I don’t even know if I’d call them relationships, but with people who wouldn’t call me back or just who made me question whether or not I could actually even trust them or be open with them and with my husband that just never was the case. So I knew very early on that he was someone who was probably going to stick around, even if I told him some pretty hard truths. And so I think for me it always takes time. Nowadays I’m much more open about sharing my story because I’m writing a book about it and it’s going to be out in the world soon.

29:50

But previously it would take me time to get to know someone and to really sort of see are they capable or are they willing to have difficult conversations? There were always people who I knew were just kind of more interested in surface level conversations or small talk, and in those cases I never felt truly comfortable sharing my story with them. But if they were someone who could sort of open up about themselves, then it made me feel like I could do that more. So the first date that I had with my now husband, he talked about how his dad had died in a motorcycle accident when he was 14. That then enabled me to talk about losing my own mom, and so right off the bat it felt like, okay, he’s willing to go there. And so I think so often when we hear other people sharing their own stories of vulnerability, it can then empower us to do the same and to recognize that, okay, this is someone who we can hopefully trust our story with.

30:47 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

I love that. Thank you for sharing that, because I think it’s so important. You know, sometimes we think that just because someone has a label that they’re safe, like oh, I’m going to go tell my mom and it turns out that, you know, maybe someone’s mother may be a really judgmental person and maybe that’s not the safest person. And so I love that looking for someone who models that vulnerability, models that safety for us, so that we know that we can go to them with those tough things. And you know, it’s also the beauty of support groups, right, there’s support groups for lots of different things, whether you have an eating disorder or whether you’re struggling with addiction, and sometimes those might be the spaces you know, if we don’t have anyone in our personal lives. So I really appreciate that. So, mallary, just a couple quick wrap up questions. So someone listening to today’s call, if they are in a middle place right now so maybe they’re not in a crisis, but they’re not necessarily feeling like they are, you know, quote unquote recovered right, what would you say to them?

31:47 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yeah, so I would say that it is possible to keep moving forward in your recovery. I think one thing that sometimes happens in the middle place is that people feel like they are stuck and they think, well, I’m just going to be sort of in this middle, kind of meandering around trying to find my way for the rest of my life. And the reality is some of us may always sort of be in this middle place, and I don’t think it’s a bad place to be. I think it’s sort of a spectrum, but along those lines it’s a spectrum that allows a lot of room for growth. And so I would say that when you think about kind of where you’re at in the middle place, it’s always good to think about aiming for more recovery. That’s something that’s been really helpful for me.

32:32

So more recovery may mean 5% more recovery one day.

32:33

Maybe it means 20% more recovery another day.

32:35

Right, sometimes it can be hard to quantify, but maybe it’s sort of resisting the urge to climb stairs, for instance, if you have difficulty with obsessive exercise, right, making that choice is contributing to more recovery. Or maybe it’s kind of listening to your hunger cues and saying, okay, I know I’m hungry, now my body is telling me I need food, so I’m going to make the choice to eat. That is making a choice in service of more recovery. And so I think sometimes this notion of full recovery can be really stifling and can kind of cause people to feel like they’re stuck because they don’t know really how to achieve that fullest expression of recovery, and doing so feels insurmountable. And so I think it’s really helpful to just be able to manage expectations and say I’m just going to aim for more recovery right, and keep trying to move forward and tell people about some of those small victories right, with someone who you trust, because I think being able to talk about the slips but also those small victories and service of more recovery can also be really helpful.

33:39 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

Absolutely. And you know, even with folks, um, those of us recovering, say, from alcohol addiction, like I haven’t had a drink in almost five years, I still don’t call myself recovered, I don’t. I don’t like to feel like I finished, like I crossed the finish line, cause then it’s like and then what right, we crossed this hypothetical finish line. Then what do we do with the rest of our lives, right, so do we just go into like a fixed mindset and stop growing and stop evolving? That to me also sounds really boring and dull, Like I’d rather just kind of live in a space of knowing that I’m never going to be perfect and know that there’s always something to improve.

34:11

You know, I think of I recently did a book study on James Clear’s Atomic Habits with folks over at the Lucky it’s Club, and you know like he talks about the idea of 1% better right, whatever that looks like. Because obviously, how do you even quantify 1% really in these conversations? But you know, just a little decision here and there that aims to do better than where you were, just a little decision here and there that aims to do better than where you were, um, that’s still progress to be celebrated over perfection, and so I, I really appreciate that. Um so, with that, what does freedom look like for you today? Like what? What’s that life like?

34:45 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

So freedom for me is not being defined by my eating disorder.

34:50

I remember very distinctly when I was younger and I moved from saying I have anorexia to I am anorexic, and I remember just thinking that I was completely defined by my eating disorder and it was how I saw the world and it really took over my life to the point where I just stopped socializing with people, I stopped reading, I stopped writing, I stopped doing all the things that I loved to do and really felt like I was utterly consumed by my disorder.

35:19

And now, as I think about where I’m at in life as a professor and author and mother and wife, I think about all the different parts of my identity and I recognize that the eating disorder is still part of that identity. Right, if I think about my identity and I recognize that the eating disorder is still part of that identity, right? If I think about my identity as a pie, the eating disorder is still a slice, but it’s not the whole pie. There’s so many other parts of my life and parts of who I am that are worthy of celebration and so I really try to focus my efforts on the other pieces of the pie, recognizing that the eating disorder may always still be there, but it no longer defines who I am and it no longer is what makes me feel special or worthy or accepted and loved, and so for me that has been really freeing to just be able to recognize that I am so much more than my disorder, and that was never something that I could see when I was really in the throes of anorexia.

36:18 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

That resonates so much, you know, I think about the endless conversations that can happen in the alcohol recovery space, like, am I an alcoholic or, you know, am I a person in recovery?

36:29

And really, obviously, at the end of the day, everyone has to pick the term that resonates with them. But I personally choose not to call myself an alcoholic If I I don’t participate in 12-step programs. But if I were to go to a 12-step meeting and be a guest in a meeting, sure I’ll kind of follow what everyone does and I’ll say hi, I’m Jessica, I’m an alcoholic, but outside of those spaces I just don’t. I’m Jessica, right, because again, I really am way more than what alcohol ever did to me at the end of the day, right, like, yeah, huge part of my story, huge part of like who I’ve become, but I’m way more than just that. So I completely resonate with the whole not defining ourselves by our struggles, like our struggles make us stronger, but they don’t totally define who we are by any means. Well, mallary, can you tell us a little bit about your book when it’s coming out, how folks can pre-order it, so anyone listening can kind of get caught up on your book?

37:25 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

Yes, of course. So Slip comes out on August 5th, but it is available for pre-order and so you can pre-order it on Amazon’s website, on Barnes Noble’s website, your local bookstore’s website Target has it. Then on August 5th you’ll get it in the mail. A lot of people like that instant gratification of waiting until the book’s actually out, but pre-orders really help authors and they help to just determine a book’s early success. If you’re planning to order it, just pre-order it, and that would mean a whole lot. And yeah, I’ve been working on different iterations of this book for more than half my life, so it feels really surreal to just know it’s going to be out in the world. And, yeah, I hope everybody checks it out.

38:06 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

That’s so exciting. Congratulations. Are you doing any tours Like is? Is there? Where can people follow you like if they want to see what?

38:14 – Mallary Tenore Tarplay  (Guest)

you’re up to. Yes, so I will be having a book tour. I’m going to be going to different cities around the country and I will be posting them on my weekly Substack newsletter. So that’s just my first name, which is m-a-l-l-a-r-ysubstackcom, and then also on Instagram, and that’s just my full name, mallary Tenore Tarpley. But I’ll definitely be posting it there and I would love for some of your listeners to come to the events.

38:39 – Jessica Dueñas (Host)

That’s awesome. Well, Mallary, it has been a huge, huge pleasure having you. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing a bit of your story. I hope everyone will jump on and pre-order, as pre-ordering is really helpful for authors. Pre-order Slip coming out August 5th and please go follow Mallary. Thanks you all so much for listening. Thank you, Mallary, for the interview. Thanks so much for having me.

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In this episode:

I’m exploring how true strength comes from letting others in. I’m sharing powerful stories about motherhood, recovery, and the beauty of asking for help. I hope you walk away feeling inspired to lean into connection and let love flow both ways.

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Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas:
Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober! I’m super happy to have you all with me this week.

Today, I want to talk about something I’ve been sitting with quite a bit lately: how much the people around us shape the way we live, heal, and grow. I can’t shake this thought:
I’m only as good as the company that I keep.

Since becoming a mom, my life has become a lot fuller. I’m so grateful — there’s so much more joy, so much more love. But honestly, there’s also so much more to hold.
There are definitely days when I feel completely stretched, emotionally worn out, and even a little lost in the shuffle of all the different roles I carry.

What’s been interesting — and challenging — is reconciling that before becoming a parent, and even earlier in my sobriety, my idea of strength looked very different.
For me, strength meant doing everything alone. I had to be this fierce, independent badass who could handle it all. Asking for help felt like weakness.

I’m someone who was one of the first in my family to go to college, a first-generation college student. Then grad school. Then a postgrad program. I did so much by myself that when I got into recovery, I thought, “Well, I can do this alone, too.”
Spoiler alert: it doesn’t work like that.
Sobriety, recovery, beating addiction — it’s really hard to do it alone.

Now, especially with my daughter, I realize that the strongest version of me is not the one who pushes through alone. It’s the one who knows when to say, “I can’t do this by myself, and I don’t have to.”

I’ve started to reframe asking for help — just to help myself not want to throw up every time I think about it. And maybe you can, too. Maybe you can give yourself the gift of reframing any negative thoughts around asking for help.

Here’s the thing:
Receiving help isn’t just about receiving — it’s also about giving.
When you allow someone to help you, you give them a chance to step up, shine, and connect.

One of the most beautiful examples in my life is my niece — she’s the youngest on our side of the family. She hasn’t had many chances to lead… but with my daughter, Amara, something just lights up in her.
She researches baby sign language, randomly shares tips with me on introducing solids — honestly, she knows more about that than I do! She offers suggestions with so much confidence.
Every time I say yes to her help, I see her confidence bloom.

So when I let her help, it’s not just making my motherhood easier — it’s mutually beneficial.
It’s powerful to make space for someone else’s gifts.

I think about this, too, with my trainer. Honestly, I have zero motivation to exercise by myself right now. Working with her not only supports me, but it gives her a chance to do what she loves, too.
Or when I ask my partner or my niece to watch Amara while I coach a client or lead a sobriety support meeting — letting people show up for me is what makes this all sustainable.

I’ve had people say, “Jess, you’re glowing!” And let me tell you — the only reason I’m doing well postpartum is because of how much I’m leaning on others. There’s no other way.

Between everything I do, the best moments are those sweet, sacred ones with Amara — squeezing her little cheeks, soaking in her presence.
And because I let myself pursue my passions and ask for help, I get to enjoy those moments fully.

So if you’re carrying a lot right now, hear this:
You don’t have to do it alone.
Asking for help isn’t a burden — it’s a beautiful, brave way to build community around yourself.
Let love flow in both directions. You asking for help benefits everyone.

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Let’s Practice Together: Real Life Scenarios

Sometimes internal dialogue gets in the way. Let’s practice reframing some common situations:

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Scenario 1: A friend offers to bring you dinner.

• Your inner voice: “I don’t want to be a burden. It’s just dinner. I should be able to manage.”
• Reframe: Accepting her offer is an act of trust.
  She wants to help. By receiving, you honor her care and deepen your bond.
  Tell yourself: Letting her help builds our bond. I am worthy of receiving care.

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Scenario 2: A coworker offers help with a project.

• Your inner voice: “I should be able to handle this. They’ll think I can’t do my job. They won’t do it like I would.”
• Reframe: Letting others contribute builds a team.
  Delegating isn’t weakness — it’s wisdom.
  Tell yourself: We’re a team for a reason. Sharing the load makes us both stronger.

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Scenario 3: Someone in your support group offers to talk.

• Your inner voice: “I don’t want to dump my problems on them. What if I cry?”
• Reframe: Letting someone see you is healing for both of you.
  Healing happens in connection.
  Tell yourself: Letting someone see me is healing for both of us.

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Scenario 4: Your partner offers to take something off your plate.

• Your inner voice: “It’s my job. They’ve had a long day, too. What if they mess it up?”
• Reframe: This is how love grows — through everyday acts of care.
  Tell yourself: I don’t have to prove I can do it all. Love means letting myself be cared for, too.

Imagine offering to help someone you love — and they shut you down. It wouldn’t feel good, right?
Let love flow both ways.

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Reflection Questions

If you like to journal or just reflect, here are a few prompts for you:

• What messages did you grow up hearing about asking for help?
• How do those messages impact your ability to ask for help today?
• When have you said yes to help, and it ended up being meaningful for the other person too?
• Where in your life are you trying to do it all right now?
• What might shift if you let someone in?

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Challenge for the Week

Say yes to help one time this week.
Let it be awkward. Let it feel new, uncomfortable, weird.
And let it surprise you.
You might be pleasantly surprised by what comes of it.

Asking for help isn’t just strength — it’s leadership.
It’s healing.
Asking for help is love in motion.

Let yourself be held.
Let someone else shine.
Absolutely — let love in.

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Jessica Dueñas:
Thanks so much for listening to today’s episode!
If this episode moved you, please share it with someone who might need a little reminder:
You don’t have to do it all, all the time.

Until next time, take good care. Thanks, everyone!

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Link to Spotify

In this episode:

Sobriety helped me stop blaming my mom and start healing. This episode is about grief, generational pain, and the peace I found—without ever getting an apology.

Resources:

The Mastery of Love by Don Miguel Ruiz

Mother Hunger by Kelly McDaniel

Coaching Information

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠

Transcript:

Hey y’all, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober, where we talk about recovery, healing—and in today’s episode—what it really means to grow into love. I’m Jessica Dueñas, and today’s episode is definitely a tender one. It’s about grief, it’s about love… and it’s about my mom.

May is coming up quickly, and here in the U.S., that means Mother’s Day is near. But also, it would have been my mother’s 86th birthday. Her memory has become this quiet, constant companion. It shows up in how I care for my daughter, in how I challenge old beliefs about beauty, and in all the ways love and loss blur together. I don’t know if it’s because her birthday is around the corner or because the grief is still so fresh—but she’s been on my mind nonstop.

One thing that’s struck me since she passed in January is this:
I loved her. Truly. Unconditionally.

And that kind of love wasn’t always there. It’s something I had to grow into—and something that sobriety made possible.

One of my favorite authors, Don Miguel Ruiz—best known for The Four Agreements—also wrote a book called The Mastery of Love. In it, he says, “Love has no obligations.” He talks about how real love doesn’t try to control or change. It simply accepts.

That was not always the case with my mom. I carried a lot of resentment toward her—for the shame I felt about my body, for my disordered eating, and eventually, for my drinking. She was proud of my accomplishments, yes—but I never felt fully accepted.

I remember one middle school picture day. I had picked out a dress I was excited to wear. My mom looked at me and said it was too tight—and then added, “You don’t want to look like una vaca.” A cow.

I bit my cheek to hold back tears, changed into a sweater, and posed for the photo—expressionless. I wasn’t just trying to shrink my body—I was shrinking my spirit.

That sense of “not enough” stayed with me for years. First, I tried to manage it through food. Then, I numbed myself with alcohol. And I blamed my mom for a long time.

But then I got sober. And sobriety gave me the space to reflect—and with reflection came clarity.

I was reading Mother Hunger by Kelly McDaniel, and one line hit me like a mic drop:
“Many women who fail to nurture their daughters were never nurtured themselves.”

That was it. My mom didn’t carry my wounds because she didn’t know another way. The beliefs she held were inherited. She brought them with her when she immigrated to the U.S.

And here’s the thing: my mom didn’t have the luxury of therapy or journaling. She had to survive—raise kids, keep going. Healing was not in her vocabulary.

Her words still hurt. They caused real damage. But with recovery, I saw that she was doing the best she could. And no, that doesn’t excuse the harm—but it helps explain it.

That understanding helped soften my resentment. I let go of the blame. Because blame was never going to heal me. Healing came from recognizing that I wasn’t broken—I had been shaped. And she had been shaped, too.

Eventually, I stopped trying to change her. I stopped needing her to apologize. I started to accept her.

And listen—before I go any further, I want to say this:

What I’m sharing is my story. This was my path to peace. Acceptance worked for me. But that doesn’t mean it’s right for everyone.

You might not be in a place where acceptance of a parent—or anyone who’s harmed you—is possible or safe. And that’s okay. This isn’t a prescription. You don’t owe anyone acceptance if it comes at the cost of your peace or safety.

I’ve cut off other family members completely. So I get it. Sometimes no contact is what keeps us safe. Boundaries are necessary. You are allowed to be exactly where you are.

But for me—accepting my mom helped me put down what wasn’t mine to carry. It helped me grieve with a full heart.

One of the last times I visited her in Costa Rica, we were having coffee and she made a typical comment about a woman passing by—something like, “She really takes care of herself.” The old me would’ve launched into a speech about body positivity.

This time, I sipped my coffee, rolled my eyes gently, and changed the subject.

Because it’s not my job to educate or fix her. I just needed to love her. And that was freeing.

When she passed this January, the grief was sharp. But also—there was gratitude. Because I had learned to love her as she was, while she was still here.

That was a gift. And now, the love continues.

With my daughter Amara, I hope to pass on something different. I hope she never feels like she has to earn my love by shrinking, overachieving, or performing. I hope she knows she’s enough, just by being her.

I hope she sees me love myself—not because I’m perfect, but because I’m enough.

That, to me, is what true love looks like.

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Reflection Questions

If you want to sit with this topic a little longer, here are a few reflection questions for you:

1. What kinds of love have you had to grow into over time?
2. Can you remember a moment that shaped how you saw yourself—and are you still carrying it?
3. What beliefs or behaviors have been passed down in your family that you’re ready to question—or break?
4. Where in your life could letting go of the need to “fix” someone lead to more peace?
5. What kind of love do you want to pass on—to your children, your community, or even to your younger self?

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Thanks for being here with me today. If this episode moved something in you, I’d love to hear from you. Leave a review, share the episode, or just take a moment to reflect.

Until next time, stay grounded, stay loving, and remember:
You are enough.

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Link to Spotify

In this episode:

Whether you’re raising kids, teaching, or questioning your own drinking—this one’s for you.

Addiction isn’t about being bad. It’s about being human—and healing is possible. I share some powerful stats from author Jessica Lahey, and reframe the shame with truth and compassion.

Resources:

My Interview With Jessica Lahey in 2024

Jessica Lahey’s Site

Coaching Information

Bottomless to Sober – Coaching, Classes, and Workshops⁠⁠

Transcript:

Jessica Dueñas:
Hey, everyone. Thanks for tuning back into Bottomless to Sober. If you’re new to the podcast—welcome. If you’ve been hanging out with me for a while, you know that this space is all about telling the truth—whether it’s about addiction, recovery, healing, or simply holding on to hope.

Today, I want to talk about something I believe every educator, parent—really, every human—should know. It’s this important reminder:
Addiction is not a moral failing.

It’s not about being weak.
It’s not about making bad choices.
It’s not about lacking willpower.

Addiction is complex. It’s biological. It’s psychological. And it’s so deeply misunderstood.

---

Last week, I had the opportunity to hear bestselling author Jessica Lahey speak here in Tampa. I’ve been following her for a few years, and let me just say—not only is she brilliant, but she also gives the best hugs. It was so nice meeting her in person. I’ve actually interviewed her on this podcast before, and I’ll link that episode in the show notes.

Jessica wrote two incredible books that I wish had been required reading back when I was still in the classroom—or even in college studying to become an educator.
The first is The Gift of Failure, and the second is The Addiction Inoculation.

One of the facts she shared during her talk absolutely knocked the wind out of me—again. I’ve heard it before, but it still hits hard every time:

If an 8th grader tries alcohol or drugs, they have a 50% chance—a coin toss—of developing substance use disorder in their lifetime.

That 50% chance is real. And it’s a powerful argument against the idea that, “Well, I’m okay with my kid drinking as long as it’s at home and I take away the car keys.”
No. That risk is significant.

But here’s the hopeful part:
If they wait until 10th grade, that 50% chance drops in half—to 25%.
If they wait until 12th grade, the risk drops again—to about 10%.
And that 10%? That’s the same as the general adult population.

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In The Addiction Inoculation, Jessica offers scripts and practical advice for talking to your kids—especially teens—about alcohol and drugs. Her approach is all about transparency. Like saying:

“Hey, your brain isn’t fully developed yet. When alcohol or drugs enter your body, they affect your brain differently than they do for adults. I highly recommend waiting. And when you’re an adult, you can make your own decisions.”

Having real, honest conversations like that can make a big difference. When young people understand that they could become addicted, it might help dissuade them from trying it in the first place.

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Let’s come back to that 10% number—the adult addiction rate.
That means 1 in 10 adults is living with substance use disorder.

Think about that. One in ten. That could be a teacher.
A parent.
A doctor.
A neighbor.
A youth pastor.
A coach.

It was me—struggling with alcohol behind closed doors while publicly being celebrated as Kentucky’s State Teacher of the Year.

And yet I carried shame—like my drinking was proof that I was broken, or reckless, or bad.

But here’s the truth:
Addiction says nothing about your character.
It’s about how you’ve been coping.
It’s about trauma.
It’s about how our brains learn to survive pain.

When we really understand that, we stop asking people, “What’s wrong with you?” and instead we start asking, “What happened to you?”

---

Jessica Lahey made another powerful point during her talk. She explained addiction through a gun analogy I hadn’t heard before.

She said that genetics are like a loaded gun. That’s your predisposition—your family history.
But trauma? Trauma is what pulls the trigger.

In other words, even if you’re genetically predisposed, it often takes life experience—stress, loss, pain—for addiction to surface.

So again, instead of judging people, we ask: What happened to you?

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Now, if you’re listening and thinking, “Could I be that one in 10?”—I get it. I was there too. I asked myself that question a lot. And yep, I Googled it a lot.

You can search “Am I an alcoholic?” and take all the quizzes. But when you start digging, you’re going to see terms like “heavy drinking,” “alcohol use disorder,” and others. And it can get confusing fast. So let’s break it down.

According to the CDC:

• For women, heavy drinking means 8 or more drinks per week.
• For men, it’s 15 or more drinks per week.

And yeah, that probably doesn’t sound like a lot—especially if you compare it to how alcohol is normalized in our culture. But science isn’t measuring social norms.
It’s measuring risk.

---

When we talk about alcohol use disorder—also known as alcohol addiction—we’re talking about a medical condition. It might look like:

• Needing more alcohol to get the same effect
• Trying to cut back but not being able to
• Continuing to drink even when it causes problems at work, in relationships, or with your health

Regardless of the label you use, if your relationship with alcohol is hurting you, it matters.

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Here’s the thing: drinking in a problematic way increases your risk for over 200 health conditions.
That includes liver disease, certain cancers, heart issues, depression, and anxiety.

And that’s just the physical stuff. It doesn’t even touch the emotional toll—
The isolation.
The shame.
The broken promises to yourself.
The loss of trust in your own word.

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But here’s the wild part:
You don’t need to hit a “rock bottom” for your drinking to be a problem.
You don’t need a diagnosis.
You don’t need to wreck your car.
You don’t need to go to rehab or have liver disease or get a DUI.

You don’t need any dramatic moment to deserve a better life.

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That’s why I love this quote from author Laura McKowen—who also founded The Luckiest Club, where I’m a meeting leader.

She says:

“The typical question is,
‘Is this bad enough for me to have to change?’

The question we should be asking is,
‘Is this good enough for me to stay the same?’

And the real question underneath it all is,
**‘Am I free?’”

Whew. That last one hits, right?
Am I free?

Free from hiding?
Free from shame?
Free from anxiety spirals and broken promises to yourself?

Because that’s what recovery is. It’s not punishment.
It’s not exile.
It’s a path toward freedom.

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So whether you’re a parent, an educator, in recovery, or still figuring it all out—just know this:

You are not alone.
You are not broken.
And you are absolutely not beyond hope.

You are worthy of support.
You are worthy of information.
You are worthy of connection.
You are worthy of freedom.

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Thanks so much for spending time with me today.
If this episode moved you or made you think of someone you love, please share it. Word of mouth is the best compliment.

Let’s keep breaking the stigma and replacing it with compassion and understanding—for ourselves and for one another.

Thanks, y’all. I’ll see you next time.

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