I share a deeply personal reflection inspired by a quote I saw online: “If you have daughters, you can’t be a bitch to yourself about your looks anymore.” As a sober mom raising my daughter, Amara, I talk about what it means to model peace instead of self-criticism and how recovery has helped me redefine beauty, strength, and worth. This episode is for anyone learning to replace self-judgment with compassion and to say, “I am enough.”
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. Today, I want to talk about something that’s been really at the top of mind for me since I saw it come up on my feed. It was a post on Instagram, and it said.
Jessica Dueñas: If you have daughters, You can’t be a bitch to yourself about your looks anymore.
Jessica Dueñas: You gotta keep that to yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: That’s right, girls. Mommy is beautiful and perfect.
Jessica Dueñas: The funny thing is that it made me laugh at first, but it also gave me pause.
Jessica Dueñas: Because it’s so true.
Jessica Dueñas: And since I’ve read that post, I really can’t stop thinking about what it really means.
Jessica Dueñas: Amara and I, we just got back from a weekend in Louisville, Kentucky, and I love that place, right? It’s a city that I lived in for 8 years, it’s become a second home to me after New York, and I was so deeply involved in Louisville as the Kentucky State Teacher of the Year.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s also the place where I completely imploded under the weight of my alcohol addiction. And when I left Louisville in 2020,
Jessica Dueñas: That was a part of me getting sober.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s… it’s a special place to me, because again.
Jessica Dueñas: everything I built in my career, I built it there, and that’s also where everything fell apart. But…
Jessica Dueñas: I love to go back there, and especially this time, I mean, I came back very different. I came back to the city that I once broken as a mom, right, with Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: It was only Amara’s second airplane trip, and it’s… it’s so cool watching her experience the world.
Jessica Dueñas: especially these moments of uncertainty that she has, right? She’s only 10 months old, and when she has these moments of… of panic, almost.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I can reassure her, it reminds me of how much of a safe space I’ve become for her.
Jessica Dueñas: There were definitely times when loud noises startled her.
Jessica Dueñas: Or she woke up from a nap completely disoriented, and her little arms were flailing, her eyes went so wide, almost like she wanted to say, Mom, where the F am I, right? But then as soon as her eyes found mine, and we just made eye contact, I would place my hand on her cheek, and I would just say.
Jessica Dueñas: you’re safe.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m here.
Jessica Dueñas: And she would just soften up. Her eyes would soften, her body would relax, and then she’d just plop her head back down on my chest.
Jessica Dueñas: And that’s what I did again and again on this trip.
Jessica Dueñas: I continued to have opportunities to ground her in safety.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? She can’t do it for herself, so I get to do it for her as her mother. And every time I said those words, you’re safe, I’m here, I felt so powerful. I mean, I felt badass. There was just…
Jessica Dueñas: this sense of a deep steadiness that came up in me whenever I had the opportunity to ground her.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I realized is that that steadiness, it’s a feeling that is very familiar to me in sobriety.
Jessica Dueñas: it’s a feeling of being anchored, right? Just that I am grounded enough that my feet are so grounded, I’m so planted, that no one can walk over me, push me down, or make me doubt myself. Almost like being a tree.
Jessica Dueñas: But the truth is… There are other moments for me.
Jessica Dueñas: quieter moments, When I don’t feel so rooted.
Jessica Dueñas: It happens to me when I look in the mirror.
Jessica Dueñas: And instead of appreciating the strength that I have built in these 9 postpartum months, that
Jessica Dueñas: that I’ve been active.
Jessica Dueñas: then my eyes will do something, like, go straight to my stomach, right? And I focus on what’s soft, what’s dimpling, and what lacks definition. And then my hand reaches to grab it.
Jessica Dueñas: And suddenly, That’s not my hand anymore.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s my mother’s.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I hear her voice saying.
Jessica Dueñas: Tienes que revajar y si estas gorda.
Jessica Dueñas: You need to lose weight. You’re fat.
Jessica Dueñas: And just as I am about to agree with that old voice, I think of Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: I think of what she’ll see if she grows up watching her mother pick herself apart.
Jessica Dueñas: How could I tell Amara, she’s perfect as she is.
Jessica Dueñas: if I can’t believe it about myself.
Jessica Dueñas: That’s when I remember the way she looks at me on that plane, how anchored she feels when I tell her, you’re safe, I’m here.
Jessica Dueñas: And I have to remind myself.
Jessica Dueñas: I am enough as I am.
Jessica Dueñas: Because the truth is, that quote, mommy is beautiful and perfect.
Jessica Dueñas: that… it’s not about modeling vanity, right? We’re not here to, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: create big-headed children, so to speak. And if they are, oh well. But it’s not about modeling vanity, it’s about modeling peace, and that’s why that quote stuck with me so much. It’s about modeling peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Because there are some real risks, right, to passing down that sense of not enoughness.
Jessica Dueñas: I know what it’s like to drink to escape myself.
Jessica Dueñas: to numb the belief that I wasn’t acceptable, that something in me was broken.
Jessica Dueñas: And… I want something better for Amara.
Jessica Dueñas: But… What does better look like?
Jessica Dueñas: for me, Better means… I don’t diet.
Jessica Dueñas: Even when my inner critic’s voice is really loud.
Jessica Dueñas: For me, Better means? I move my body for joy.
Jessica Dueñas: Not punishment.
Jessica Dueñas: For me, better means that I listen when my body says, enough.
Jessica Dueñas: And I want to point out.
Jessica Dueñas: That that is discipline in and of itself.
Jessica Dueñas: It’s just a different kind.
Jessica Dueñas: But it also means…
Jessica Dueñas: But I have to monitor my thoughts, and I have to work to catch the comparisons, and I have to work to reframe the criticism. And most days, you all, that’s pretty manageable, but some days, that’s still really damn hard work.
Jessica Dueñas: Because in one way, it’s easier to put down the alcohol and not drink again, because for me, it’s very simple. Either I drink or I don’t, and I don’t need alcohol to live.
Jessica Dueñas: But, my relationship with my body, that’s an everyday thing. That fluctuates. That goes up and down.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, in terms of wanting better for Amara, specifically.
Jessica Dueñas: What I envisioned for her is a life with less noise in the head.
Jessica Dueñas: Right? A quieter mind. I imagine her looking in the mirror someday.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe her hand lands on her belly.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe for a moment, that hand on her belly?
Jessica Dueñas: does become mine.
Jessica Dueñas: But instead of criticism, What she gets to feel is gentleness.
Jessica Dueñas: And maybe she’ll hear my voice saying, You’re perfect, as you are.
Jessica Dueñas: And she believes it.
Jessica Dueñas: Little noise. Very little debate.
Jessica Dueñas: Just peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Thanks for listening, y’all, to today’s episode. If it moved you, or if you found that it was helpful for you, please share it with someone else who’s working on healing their relationship with themselves. Until next time, take care, and remember, you are enough.
In this episode of Bottomless to Sober, I talk about why “rock bottom” is a myth and how recovery doesn’t have to wait for a crisis. I share how I kept finding new lows in my own journey and what it really means to stop digging and start healing. I also offer guidance for those watching someone they love struggle—how to protect your peace when their “bottom” isn’t enough for them to change.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. I wanted to start today’s question with… or today’s question. I wanted to start today’s episode with a question.
Jessica Dueñas: And that question is, if any of you have ever said to yourselves.
Jessica Dueñas: This has to be it. This is my rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: Only to find that somehow there… there’s still more, right? There’s still something way below that, and then another level below that. And it kind of just keeps going to infinity. And no, the honest truth is it doesn’t go till infinity, because
Jessica Dueñas: Really, when we’re talking about situations such as addiction, right, the ultimate bottom is the loss of life.
Jessica Dueñas: But there are many levels of bottoms that a person can hit before getting to that point, to that point of tragedy.
Jessica Dueñas: Going back to that question, though, right, like…
Jessica Dueñas: Have any of you ever said to yourselves, this is it, this is my rock bottom? I’ll be the first one to say, I have been there many times.
Jessica Dueñas: I don’t even know how many times I’ve experienced something that I did as a result of my drinking, and then I convinced myself that that was my bottom, and I would never do it again, only to then land in the exact same position, if not worse.
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, there was my blackout and hospital stay in , very early on in my complicated journey with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: Years later, as we start to approach when I eventually get sober, my diagnosis of alcoholic liver disease in …
Jessica Dueñas: Mind you, that was the same year that I was supposed to give a TED-Ed talk for the first time, but instead I had to check myself into rehab, so I didn’t get to give that talk.
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the thing, even after all of that, I still relapsed.
Jessica Dueñas: I remember in one of my spirals, under the influence, I ran back to an ex’s house. This ex was definitely not a safe person.
Jessica Dueñas: And I was sort of in just this entangled space.
Jessica Dueñas: with my romance… with my romantic life at the time. And there was a journalist who had also kind of caught my eye, and I had texted the reporter, and I was like, hey, I’m in this really bad spot, I need you to come save me.
Jessica Dueñas: And he did. You know, he came, he pulled me out of that ex’s home.
Jessica Dueñas: And even got the police involved, and that was so messy. Like, I remember just being in tears.
Jessica Dueñas: drunk, I don’t even know what I was wearing, you know, whatever I was on, barely clothed, I feel, if I really think about that memory. And I was just shattered.
Jessica Dueñas: And I thought, that was my bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I drank again.
Jessica Dueñas: And then I went into rehab again.
Jessica Dueñas: And here’s the thing…
Jessica Dueñas: I used to definitely think that rock bottom was one single moment, and that whether it was for me or for anyone else experiencing a so-called bottom, that… that would be the moment where the light bulb will go off and, you know, I would suddenly be scared straight.
Jessica Dueñas: But… that’s just not the case. And so, you know, I hear people say, I hit rock bottom often.
Jessica Dueñas: But my… my thought really is, I don’t know that a bottom really exists, honestly.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, with that said, I feel like the truth is that
Jessica Dueñas: We’re digging, we’re digging ourselves deeper every time that we continue to pick up and continue to use or continue to drink, and that eventually we… we…
Jessica Dueñas: We are the ones that have that choice.
Jessica Dueñas: to…
Jessica Dueñas: recognize that maybe we need to seek help, right? That we don’t have to keep digging before we decide to seek help to help us stop.
Jessica Dueñas: And so I want to think about that a little bit.
Jessica Dueñas: Like, I don’t know, maybe you are someone who has sworn that this will be the last time that you wake up hungover.
Jessica Dueñas: And you just find yourself drinking a few days later.
Jessica Dueñas: Maybe you’re like me, and you promised yourself you would never go back to your ex, and then the loneliness mixed in with a little alcohol convinced you otherwise.
Jessica Dueñas: or… maybe you’ve watched someone else, maybe someone you love, like I did with my boyfriend Ian.
Jessica Dueñas: Truly believed that they had hit a bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: Only to find themselves slipping right back into the same pain they swore they’d escaped.
Jessica Dueñas: And I will say, Ian, he did hit a bottom, right? He… he did not… Outlive his addiction.
Jessica Dueñas: And so I say that to say that
Jessica Dueñas: A true bottom for me, like I said earlier, is a loss of life. But in the meantime.
Jessica Dueñas: There’s lots of digging that we can do before we get to that point, and
Jessica Dueñas: it’s so important to recognize that we don’t have to keep digging, right? If we find ourselves having a repeated
Jessica Dueñas: back-to-back breaking point, or a back-to-back setback. It doesn’t mean that we’re hopeless.
Jessica Dueñas: But it does mean that we’re human, right? Because this recovery journey, this growth journey that we’re all on, it’s not linear. And so, sometimes it’s going to take more than one massive setback before we finally are just
Jessica Dueñas: tapping out and saying, that’s it, I’m done, I really need some help.
Jessica Dueñas: I remember in , when I ended up in that hospital bed, I was recently married, and we recently got a house, and I was just so excited for our future together.
Jessica Dueñas: And everything came to a pause when I found myself in that hospital bed, because immediately, I wondered if I was worthy of my marriage, if I was worthy of this relationship, if I was worthy of everything that I had, because I judged myself so harshly.
Jessica Dueñas: for… Having a problem with alcohol.
Jessica Dueñas: I genuinely believe that I was less than because of it, and I was so ashamed.
Jessica Dueñas: And I remember in my head thinking, like, how could I possibly get here? Like, how could I possibly black out, have my then-husband find me, and call ? Because I blacked out and passed out, right? And he was terrified for me.
Jessica Dueñas: how could I do that? I’ll never do that again. That’s what I said back then, in . My sobriety date is November 28th, , so that goes to show you that we might say one thing, but what we actually end up doing can be entirely different.
Jessica Dueñas: That moment… That was supposed to be my rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: But it wasn’t.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I’ve learned between my experiences and those of all the people I work with in sobriety meeting groups and in coaching people one-on-one is that
Jessica Dueñas: the rock bottom idea, it’s not even about how far you fall, but really, it’s about when you decide to stop digging yourself deeper, right? It’s that moment that you decide that
Jessica Dueñas: You’re gonna start building.
Jessica Dueñas: And, you know, when I look back at the young woman that ended up in the hospital, Terrified.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m not even mad at her.
Jessica Dueñas: You know, she was doing the best that she could with what she had. She was stressed out, no way to cope, no education on how to cope in a healthy way. So, she was doing the best with the tools that she had.
Jessica Dueñas: And I know some of you might be listening right now, you know, trying to survive yourselves.
Jessica Dueñas: Even when you are breaking your own promises. And so I hope that you hear me when I say this, that you are not broken, you are not alone.
Jessica Dueñas: when you have a setback, when you hit yet a new level of rock bottom, consider that the invitation to try again. Consider that an invitation to ask yourself, what have I not tried in order to get sober?
Jessica Dueñas: Because what I promise you is this.
Jessica Dueñas: When you think that you’ve hit a rock bottom.
Jessica Dueñas: If you’re still here, if you’re still alive, if you are still breathing, the unfortunate truth is that things can get worse, right? But they really don’t have to.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, you don’t have to wait for another heartbreak as a result of your alcohol or drug use. You don’t have to wait for another fall, or another hospital visit, or another trip to rehab. You don’t have to wait until you get a scary diagnosis as a result of your drinking. You don’t.
Jessica Dueñas: You, you can stop digging right now.
Jessica Dueñas: And you can start building.
Jessica Dueñas: Even from the middle of a mess.
Jessica Dueñas: And I hope that if you remember even just one thing from this episode of me rambling, that it’s just this. You don’t have to wait for things to get worse.
Jessica Dueñas: Before you start to make them better.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, before we wrap up, I just want to speak to those of you who might be
Jessica Dueñas: Watching someone that you love struggle.
Jessica Dueñas: someone who, maybe, according to you, has hit what you thought would be a rock bottom, and you’re like, alright, well, now they’re gonna go get their… get their lives together. But…
Jessica Dueñas: your loved one doesn’t see that they hit a so-called rock bottom, right? Maybe they got a DUI, and they’re still out there drinking. And you’re like, what? How is this not, like, clicking for them?
Jessica Dueñas: I know how painful that is. Trust me. It is so hard to watch someone drown while you are standing there on the shore.
Jessica Dueñas: Screaming for them to… swim towards you, right? It’s one of the hardest forms of heartbreak.
Jessica Dueñas: I…
Jessica Dueñas: I can’t even tell you how hard it is to love someone who is not ready to save themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: And what I’ve learned…
Jessica Dueñas: Both from being that person who’s drowning, but also from loving others who have been there.
Jessica Dueñas: Is that you… you can’t make someone see their bottom, and you cannot drag them into clarity.
Jessica Dueñas: What you can do is stand in truth.
Jessica Dueñas: What you can do is be compassionate.
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes, support looks like you needing to set a boundary that protects your own peace.
Jessica Dueñas: Or maybe it looks like you refusing to participate in their chaos?
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes you do have to remove yourself, right? Sometimes you might have to say, I love you too much to watch you destroy yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: Love does not always mean rescue, and sometimes love means stepping back.
Jessica Dueñas: So they can finally feel the ground for themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: we… we can’t force people to believe that they’ve hit a bottom, and everyone’s path is different, everyone is… everyone’s journey is different. We don’t know when they’re going to finally say enough.
Jessica Dueñas: But we can model what it looks like to live differently, right? We can show them what hope looks like, and when they’re ready.
Jessica Dueñas: They can remember the person who stood in compassion without losing themselves.
Jessica Dueñas: And so, if you want some reflection questions, feel free to grab a notebook and press pause if you need to, but here’s just some reflection questions to take with you for…
Jessica Dueñas: Until the next episode.
Jessica Dueñas: So my first question is, when was the last time that you thought, this has to be my bottom? And what did that moment feel like in your body?
Jessica Dueñas: What was your body trying to tell you?
Jessica Dueñas: What small whisper inside you knows when it’s time to change? And do you listen to it, or do you quiet that whisper?
Jessica Dueñas: And what would it look like to take one small step toward healing today?
Jessica Dueñas: But anyway…
Jessica Dueñas: I would like to thank you all for spending this time with me. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with someone who might need to hear that they are not alone, and again, remember, you do not have to wait to hit
Jessica Dueñas: Any kind of so-called bottom before you decide to start to get back up.
Jessica Dueñas: Thanks, everyone. Appreciate your time today. Have a good one.
In this episode, I sit down with Abigail Teixeira for a powerful conversation on sobriety, generational healing, and parenting with intention. Abigail opens up about the courage it took to share the parts of her story that had been “silenced for too long” and what reclamation and decolonization look like in her daily life. In our conversation, we address breaking cycles of trauma and addiction, how recovery connects to healing our lineage, and the ways imperfection and vulnerability shape how we show up as mothers. This conversation is an honest reminder that sobriety is about more than not drinking, it’s about reclaiming your voice, breaking cycles, and living in alignment.
Resources:
About Abigail Teixeira:
Abigail Teixeira is a trauma recovery coach, international speaker, and 3x best-selling author devoted to helping cycle-breaking women heal their trauma and rise into leadership. A former nurse turned decolonized business mentor, Abigail blends over 17 years of clinical experience with deep lived experience, ancestral wisdom, human design, nervous system healing, and woman-centered coaching.
Abby empowers mothers and creatives to rewrite their stories, reclaim their voice, and lead with purpose. Her mission is to end cycles of pain by building legacies rooted in love, sovereignty, and truth.
With four children and a thriving coaching business, Abigail shows that sacred boundaries, bold vision, and healing are the foundation of true success. She believes that our deepest pain often holds the key to our greatest power—and that healing ourselves is how we heal the world.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back. Well, I am super excited to be in conversation today with Abby Teixera. Abby is someone who I’ve been following maybe for years, I don’t even know how long it’s been, but I saw her first in conversation with another good friend of mine named Priscilla, and Abby really just captured my attention. She is a mother of four, I believe.
Jessica Dueñas: A coach, I know an author, an entrepreneur.
Jessica Dueñas: kind of all the things, but really, some of the things that really struck me about you, Abby, and why I’m so glad that you’re here, is, just kind of seeing how you talk about parenting. I know you are in recovery. I know that from your post, that you have survived some trauma in Europe history and addiction as well, and, that you also have a community for mothers, right? I think the Healing Mama Collective.
Jessica Dueñas: So really, I just wanted to bring you on to kind of expose folks to the good work that you’re doing, in case anybody is looking for support in their own healing journey, in their motherhood journey. Again, there’s so much that you do that always inspires me, so I would just love to learn more from you. But before I just kind of introduce you, do you want to tell people who you are, and formally what you do?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Jessica, for having me. I am so excited to chat with you. I’ve also been following you as well at the… I think the same time that you started following me, I started following you too, and it was through our mutual friend, Priscilla, who I love and admire her so much.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, you’re also a fellow Latina, which I love, always supporting. I am, like you said, all the things… I am a mama for, the age ranges is from 7 is my oldest, 1 is my youngest, and 4 and 5 are my middle 2, so very intense, full life, that’s for sure. I’m also a coach, I’m a trauma recovery coach, a feminine business mentor.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I’m a speaker, an author, my fourth book is actually about to launch next week, and it’s actually about parenting. It’s called Parent… The Art of Parenting. It wasn’t in the manual, and it’s a co-authored book, and so,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): my chapter specifically on my journey through postpartum depression, and really breaking the stigma and the silence around, what that journey can look like. Interesting with that, a little off the cuff here, I actually reached out to my community on Instagram, when I got this opportunity to write this chapter, and I did a poll in my stories asking, you know, different topics that people wanted to
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): To hear from me, like, write about.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, that’s the one that won by a landslide, postpartum… my journey through postpartum depression, which was interesting, because I’ve never written about it fully, and so it was really good to be able to go back there, and then now it’s being launched, and, you know, that’ll come out into the world.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But yeah, like you said, I am in recovery, 11 years coming up here in October, recovering from addiction to alcohol. I’m also a childhood trauma survivor, complex trauma survivor, and advocate now.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, yeah, those are the things that are my passions, these are the things that I live for, I speak for, I write, and, you know, these kind of opportunities to have conversations like this just fill me up so much, because I know
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): What it was like for me in… whether it was the early days of my recovery journey, or in my parenting journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): just looking for others, you know, looking for others who sounded like me, who look like me, who had similar stories, because one of the biggest things that I find.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that many women struggle with is that feeling of isolation and loneliness, right? That, like, we’re the only ones, nobody gets it, all of that kind of stuff, right? And so I think we just need more voices speaking out about these real-life experiences, especially breaking cycles, right? When we come from families that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, they did the best they could, but unfortunately it wasn’t good enough, you know, and it left many of us with trauma. And then we have to rewrite, you know, kind of that script, and learn as we go.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it can be very daunting. It can be very daunting, right? And so I think it’s really important to be able to share openly about these things so that others can see themselves, and they have hope. They know that, you know, healing is possible, and that we can do this.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that, Abby. I know there’s times that I’ve seen you post about the concept of reclamation, and I was curious if you could speak to that, because I was going to ask you what’s the importance of sharing your story, but you already hit on that, which is beautiful, right? And it is so important for us to feel seen, it is so important for us to realize that we are not alone in the struggles that we share. But as you talk about healing, I’ve heard you talk about
Jessica Dueñas: reclamation, I’ve heard you talk about decolonization of our minds, and I’m so curious if you can speak a little bit to that, and what that might look like for you in your daily life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Absolutely. So, like I mentioned, as a Latina woman, my parents are from El Salvador, I was born in Mexico, and, what I’ve learned in my healing and recovery journey is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): When we look on a spiritual level, a lot of the things that we carry, yes, you know, our environment, how we grew up, the things that we were exposed to have a really big part, and they play a big role in shaping us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But also, it goes a lot deeper than that. There’s actually intergenerational patterns, trauma, things that we are carrying that come from, you know, ancestors. You know, and when I think about, a couple of years ago, I started getting really curious about my roots.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And about, you know, who are the people in my lineage? Because, like I said, when I took on this role of the cycle breaker in my family.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I started to really look at the lineages I come from, my paternal and maternal. I started to see, as far as I could see, there was a lot of war, poverty, addiction, abuse, like, on both sides. Both of my grandfathers on both sides died of alcoholism at some point, like, as a result, you know, in addition to other things that were going on.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But they had problems with addiction, that kind of a thing. And I started getting really curious about, you know, this whole lineage thing, and, you know, they say that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): As a woman, when we step into healing and recovery, we’re actually healing 7 generations before us, and 7 generations after us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I found that statement so impactful, so that’s what really kind of sparked my curiosity to start digging into, you know, my history, my lineage, and so I ended up doing, like, an ancestry DNA testing, just to kind of see, you know, what was my mix, you know, in terms of, like, bloodlines, I guess.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And it was very interesting, because when, it came out, it actually turned out that I was, genetically 51% indigenous. It said Indigenous.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): At Maya, and and then the other was, like, mixed, 39% European, so, like, Spanish, Portuguese, and then a whole bunch of, like, all these little mixtures in there as well. And that was really eye-opening for me, because
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, it’s… it was the… when I started to really explore about lineage and… and decolonization, which is really what decolonization is, to me, it’s about unlearning the colonial ways of thinking and being that happen to many of us as Latinas.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? Like, we come from these long lineages that are very mixed, and where that mixture happened was, you know, at one point in time in the… for example, in the land that I come from, you know, Mexico, El Salvador.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): There was Indigenous people that lived there, and then, you know, the Europeans came, they colonized it in a very brutal, horrific way, basically almost erasing. There was 100 million Indigenous,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): people that were massacred, right? And so, it was, like, this whole thing that got me diving into all of that. And that… what happened during those times deeply affected our bloodlines, right? Our ancestors that survived those times.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they had no way of processing what they had just experienced, right? They were seeing the wiping out of their culture, their languages, their systems, all of that kind of stuff, right? And a lot of our practices, all of that kind of stuff was banned, was not allowed, and what happens when, you know, the ones that were most affected were the children having to witness all of this and not being able to process
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and grieve, and so the way it’s been put to me is that when you have no way of processing the grief, the pain, the loss of seeing your culture literally being almost banished.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it goes into your blood memory. And so that blood memory and the, like, into our bones, basically, that’s what… that’s genetically what gets passed down. And so that’s where intergenerational trauma starts to happen.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so that’s when you have the violence and, you know, the addictions and all of that kind of stuff to try to soothe.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, this feeling that many of us are born with, you know? You were gonna say something?
Jessica Dueñas: Oh, yeah, I was going to ask, well, this makes me think, and I’m curious if it’s the kind of like the same thing, when I think about epigenetics and how I’ve read about how epigenetics is the study of, you know, how the environment or things that happen literally impact your genes, right? And so I’m curious if that’s kind of, like, what this basically is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Exactly, exactly. So, just like…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, this deeply affected our genetic makeup of our ancestors. We have the power to reverse that, in a sense, and change it for our future, right? And so the things I’m healing from, my children won’t have to heal from, right? And it takes one person in the lineage to literally stop and say, you know, I’m no longer passing this stuff down. I’m no longer… it’s not okay for me to parent in this way, the way it was done for me.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That kind of a thing, right? And so… but it’s a deep, deep process, because these are things that are hardwired in us, and also, you know, we’ve… we… we develop these coping mechanisms, so for me,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, growing up, like I said, like, in a violent alcoholic home, you know, lots of abuse, lots of just really crazy things happening, I developed these, like, kind of, coping mechanisms to deal with it, because nobody was there to teach me, like, you know, this is what grief is, this is what loss is, you know, this is how you process anger or sadness, and, you know, I was just told, like, many of our, you know, kind of culturally, is just, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): kind of shut it down, sweep it under the rug, move on, you know, and you don’t have to think about it. But obviously, it manifests itself in different ways. Depression, anxiety, addiction, all of these kind of things.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so these are hardwired in us, not only in our environment, but also, like I said, ancestrally, right? And so that really took me down that route of really discovering about, you know, my lineage, and just how deep it runs.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And the ancestral ways of healing, of being, and living, and all of that kind of stuff, and unlearning the colonial mindset, which is, you know, hustle culture, which is disconnection from self.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): disconnection from each other, you know, this individualistic mindset that, you know, we all doing… we’re all doing things on our own, we don’t need anyone, all of that kind of stuff. Whereas, you know, our ancestors deeply, revered community. You know, we all healed in community, we grieved in community. Even as mothers, there was, you know, the village, the idea of the village coming around you, taking care of you when you had your children, all of that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That all kind of dissolved when colonialism came.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): into play, and it was all about survival, right? It was about survival, and really having that disconnection to not only ourselves, but also the Earth, you know, which is what decolonization really is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): it’s about learning to reconnect with ourselves, and then with our Great Mother Earth, right? And then just going deep… deeper into all of those kind of things. That’s in a very nutshell kind of way, describing it, because it’s deep, it’s deep stuff, right? But, you know, that’s the work that I’ve been really diving into recently, and it’s life-changing. It really is life-changing, you know, and it’s things that I’m now passing down to my children.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): They’re seeing me doing certain things, and they have questions, they’re curious, and they want to come and do things with me, and I’m explaining to them and sharing with them. And that in itself is, you know, breaking cycles, because one of the cycles that I’m very proud to break from my lineage is the cycle of silence.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, where we don’t speak up about things. You know, we don’t talk about things, feelings, emotions, what are those? We don’t, you know, like, especially coming from children, and it’s like, you know, in my home, all emotions are welcome, we talk about them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, anger is okay. You know, I always tell my 5-year-old, my 5-year-old’s a very intense little boy, and when he gets upset, you know, like, he goes, like, 0 to 100 with anger, and, you know, I tell him, like, Papa, it’s okay for you to be, you know, angry, but it’s not okay for you to be mean, you know, if you’re angry.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And then I show him ways to be able to process that anger in a way that’s healthy, instead of suppressing it and shutting it down and saying, like, you know, smacking him, or like, you know, those kind of things that I grew up with.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and so, yeah, so it’s been like a whole journey and new discovery, and it’s really allowed for me to start coming home to myself and remembering. So that’s what reclamation is. I’m remembering who I’m actually… who I actually am beneath all of the trauma, beneath all of the conditioning and the programming and all of that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And who my ancestors were. You know, I’m able to be now the voice that they weren’t allowed to have, right? And especially as a woman. And so, so yeah, so like I said, in a nutshell, you know, that’s what…
Jessica Dueñas: Love it.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Decolonization and reclamation is.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I think that’s so incredibly powerful, and as you were giving the example about your son.
Jessica Dueñas: I thought about how I grew up as well, and some feelings were allowed, like, if I was happy, that wasn’t a problem. But yes, if I was frustrated, if I was upset, if I was getting emotional, there’s the classic, I’ll give you something to cry about, you know, you know, that kind of language, I feel like is very pervasive in a lot of…
Jessica Dueñas: cultures, and definitely, like, you know, my family, my father was from Cuba, my mother was from Costa Rica, and, you know, I definitely experienced a lot of that, too. I’m curious, how early on did you start having these conversations with your children? I mean, because all of your kiddos, they’re young, and so I’m curious, like, was it as soon as they were verbal that you were having these conversations about feelings? Like, when did you start to set that stage with them that
Jessica Dueñas: Whatever they’re feeling, it’s okay, and then giving them guidance for how to, like, manage the feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, that’s a great question. So, for me, it was really, the moment that I became a mom, I was already… I want to say I was about…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): about 4 years into my healing and recovery journey. So I felt like I had a pretty stable foundation, you know, going into becoming a mom. But nothing prepares you, truly prepares you, to becoming… to entering into, you know, motherhood. And,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, what happens is, as a cycle breaker, you enter into this process of what’s called reparenting. So what reparenting is, is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): We think about an inner child, which lives in all of us. We all have this spirit that lives inside of us, this inner little, you know, that when we close our eyes, you know, is very present there, right? Even though externally we are, like, whatever age, you know, and we’re at this kind of level, internally, we have this inner child that lives within all of us.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that, there were certain things for me, personally, that, weren’t given to me, you know, as a child, weren’t, like I mentioned earlier, certain emotions, certain, things that I was not taught how to process.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so what I have to do in order to be able to do that to my kids, like, help them learn to process, I have to teach myself how to process my own emotions, and go into this kind of reparenting, while parenting kind of journey. And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): what happened was, you know, I had a journey of postpartum depression early on in my first two pregnancies at postpartum with both of them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I learned a lot through that. And, you know, the early stages, they don’t really talk, you know, they’re just kind of doing stuff, they’re babies, they’re, you know, it’s manageable. But then they started reaching the ages where it was very triggering for me, and I didn’t know why. There were certain things that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): They were, they were starting to do that would trigger me deeply, like, on a very reactive level.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I started getting super curious, and this is where the foundation that I had before becoming a mom was really vital for me, because I had already…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I kind of… I had these tools. I had tools and resources that I can lean into when I came across these situations where I was kind of stumped, and I was like, what is happening here? You know, and one of the biggest tools was leaning into curiosity.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): One of my coaches talks about becoming curious over defeated. And there were times when I was very defeated, because, you know, I would, so, for example.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, when kids start reaching the age of toddler, they start, you know, kind of, having a little bit of a voice, you know, they start kind of having a little power struggle, they start having these meltdowns and big, big emotions, big feelings, and that was super triggering for me, because
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I really felt lost how to deal with them in a way that wasn’t, scary, in a way that wasn’t abusive, because for me, as a child, what I discovered, the reason why I was becoming triggered when they were starting to express themselves in these ways, is because I… when I was witnessing them doing this.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): It brought me back to a time when I was their age, and it wasn’t safe for me to express myself in those ways.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, you know, it was… and so it was my inner child, you know, kind of in this, like, fight-or-flight kind of survival mode, that, you know, if I… if I screamed too much, or if I… if I, you know, had a meltdown, or all that kind of stuff, like, it would… I would get, like, physically attacked for those kind of things, right? And that was something that was a non-negotiable for me. I was not gonna repeat that with my kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But, it was scary because, well, you know, I would react, right? They would do something, and it would startle me, and I would react. And, like, you know, the most common thing that would happen is, like, I would yell, right? And I could see…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): in them, when I would react that way, that they were scared. Like, I would see the fear in their eyes.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that crushed me as a mom, you know? Like, I was… because I recognized that fear, I recognized, you know, that reaction in them, and so I kind of took a step back, and… and I was like, what is going on here? You know, getting really curious about that. And then that’s when I discovered it was because, you know, this is triggering for me, because it wasn’t safe in my nervous system to witness them acting in ways that I was not allowed to act.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so then that’s when I had to learn different ways.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, taking, like, lots of… so many different things. I, many different modalities, like EFT tapping, breathwork.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, going out for a little timeout when I’m feeling activated. I started to also start naming things, vocally with my kids, so if I was feeling overwhelmed, I would say, mama’s feeling overwhelmed right now, I just need a minute. I’m gonna step away. You know, and I would go to, like, the bathroom, or, you know, wherever was the case, or I would summon my husband and kind of tag team with him, and I was like, I need a moment, I need to collect myself, because I’m just in this, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): this state, right, that I know… that I’m not… I don’t feel in control right now, right? And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And then, of course, I have other supports. I have…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): lots and lots of, like, incredible resources and tools that I’ve picked up along my journey that I leaned on, you know, including others who were doing the same journey as me, who I knew were also trauma survivors, who I knew were parents that now had teenagers, had adult children, and I started asking them questions, like, how do you navigate this? Like, how do you do this? Like, really, really humbling myself and asking those who are a little bit further down the path than me.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): For their support and their advice and their tips. And so, so yeah, so those are some of the things that I started to really implement. And now, to this day, I am, you know, like, it’s a messy journey, but I am very much, and I talked a lot about this in my content,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I don’t pretend like I know it all with my kids, you know, whereas, like, growing up, my parents had all the answers, you know, like, and if they didn’t, like, you know, it’s like, you don’t question them. Like, it’s just, like, it’s just the way it is, right? Like, they are the all-knowing, they had them on a pedestal, all that kind of stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when I don’t know things, I tell them, mama doesn’t know, let me… let me find out, or let me… let’s learn together, those kind of things. I name emotions in my house, so my kids know what overwhelm is, they know what anger is, they know what sadness, frustration, all of those kind of things, because I name it to them, you know, when I’m experiencing those things. And then when they’re experiencing things, I also give it name, so that they’re not so confused, and they’re like, you know, because they’re just learning, you know, they’re…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they’re growing, and they’re feeling these things that they’ve never felt before, and it’s very overwhelming for them, right? And so then we learn to co-regulate together, right? Where I’m learning to regulate myself, my emotions, my nervous system, at the same time showing them, you know, how they can learn as well, right? But it’s messy. It’s messy. It’s not perfect, you know? It definitely… there’s days, you know, when it’s
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): doesn’t go as planned, you know? But then this is when, you know, again, the cycle breaking happens, and then I go into repair mode, right? There is never a time
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when I have done something, said something, reacted in a way where I felt remorseful and regretful, where they didn’t hear about it after. You know, and it’s gotten to the point now where they call me out, you know? Like, sometimes, you know, I’ll say something, and it’ll hurt my, sort of, for example, my 4-year-old, and a few hours later, he’ll come to me, he’s like, Mama, you hurt my feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I’m like, okay, buddy, let’s talk about it, right? And we sit down, we talk about it, and like, you know, I have this conversation with him and stuff, and, you know, and I tell him, you know, Mama sorry, I’m sorry that I spoke to you that way, you don’t deserve to be spoken to that way. I want you to know that, you know, and Mama sorry, and I’m gonna try my best.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): So that this doesn’t happen again, do you forgive me? You know, and he looks at me, he’s like, yeah, I forgive you, you know, and he gives me a hug, and, you know, and so we do that, and so I will never get tired, be too prideful, you know, to, like, apologize and own up and take responsibility for when my actions hurt them, you know, which is completely different than what was done to me, you know?
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, I was going to say.
Jessica Dueñas: how safe is that for your children, right? Because, again.
Jessica Dueñas: I think about my family, who did the best that they could, given the circumstances that they had, right? And they didn’t have the privilege to do the self-reflection that, like, a lot of our generation gets to do, right? And do the self-help and get into, like, therapy or coaching, etc. But, you know, I think about the times that
Jessica Dueñas: I, like, I dared to actually try that, right? To say, hey, that hurt my feelings, you know, like, for me, I would get so many comments, specifically, like, body-shaming comments, because I’ve always been in a larger body since I was small. And, and you know, like, I’m tall, I’m, like, 5’9″, you know, so I’ve never been small.
Jessica Dueñas: And there, you know, I think about all the times that I’ve tried to do that voicing, and how quickly it… I was, like, squashed like a little bug, you know? Like, it was…
Jessica Dueñas: that conversation space was not there to express if we were hurt, to express a possible mistake being made, and so I love that your children really can just come to you and say that, and that you don’t come off as threatened either, and I think that that’s really, really big.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Exactly, exactly, and huge, you know, and… and again, this has been a very messy journey, like, I want to emphasize that, because, you know, I have a lot of friends, I lead support circles for parents, all that kind of stuff, right? And they always joke, like, oh, we want to come and live in your house, we want you to be our mom, and like, all this stuff, and like, you know, and I’m like, listen, I’m not perfect, you know, like, but I am trying every single day, right? And I will
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): never give up trying to do better than I did yesterday, right? And I’m not too prideful, too, you know, this or that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): to admit when my faults, you know, have… when I’ve… when my faults have hurt somebody, especially my children, right? And this has been something that, for me, has been so critical, because I have a parent still to this day that I’m no contact with, because he cannot, to this day, admit his wrongs, admit that he hurt me, admit that, like, anything. Take responsibility for anything, you know? And I know how deeply wounding that is.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And I would never want to pass that down to my kids, right? So I’m intentional about
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, so how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna learn to, like, not repeat these things, right? And then I summon in all and every and all supports, resources, tools that I can, so that it can help me navigate this in a better, safer way, so that I can do a little better for them, and then they will do a little better for their children, right? And then that’s how the lineages start really healing, you know, passing that on. Because even, like, you know, talking about sobriety journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, something that I’m super proud of is…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): My parents… my children have never seen me drink. You know, obviously, I have… my oldest is 7, I have 11 years sobriety.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they haven’t even been around a drunk person, you know, to this day. Like, they’ve never… I wouldn’t even know how to explain to them what a drunk person looks like, you know? And that is so different from, like, what I grew up with, right? By their age, I was already experiencing abuse.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, had a lot of trauma, my dad, you know, witnessing him drink all the time, you know, like, yeah, like, it was just a completely different reality. And, you know, and so it’s like, I look to those examples of what I don’t want to do, and then I figure out how I can, support that decision that I’m not gonna do that, you know, and pass that down.
Jessica Dueñas: I’m so curious to dive into a little bit about, the decision to go no contact. A little bit about my story. So, I wouldn’t say that I experienced… I have mixed feelings, lots of mixed feelings, especially the longer I’m sober and the more that I navigate my childhood. You know, I would say that the biggest thing that I struggled with was, like, yes.
Jessica Dueñas: We had the classic.
Jessica Dueñas: I feel like the classic Latino first-generation home where, yes, you don’t talk about anything, you’re in survival mode, you know, the family’s just working, working, working, things like that. And I dealt with a lot of body shaming, again, because, like I mentioned, I was in a larger body, so I just got the brunt, like, everything that I did with regard to food was, like, like, picked apart, etc. So I would, you know, but I… I always hesitate if I want to say that that
Jessica Dueñas: was, like, my own childhood trauma, but it was. I mean, I would say that that was probably the foundation to my drinking later on, but that’s a whole separate story. I have a family member that I would say never directly traumatized me. However, in my adulthood, I actually chose to go no contact, almost because of their level of entitlement to access to me when they were actually just not present. So it was someone who was not present, and
Jessica Dueñas: So they didn’t hurt me, but they just weren’t there, and now they wanted to be in my life. And I was like, oh, no, I’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way. However, I hear so many different people having so many different responses to the idea of no contact. Like, I’ve seen some people who I highly respect saying that, you know, no contact is this…
Jessica Dueñas: just, it’s the easy way out, supposedly.
Jessica Dueñas: for me, it is the easier way out, because I simply don’t want to deal with this individual, so yes, spot on. I don’t feel like working things out to make it work with this person, but in your case, this was a parent, this was your caregiver, who did cause harm. And so, for anyone who might be listening and kind of, like, debating, do I go no contact with this person from my childhood, or do I try to make it work.
Jessica Dueñas: How do you… Come to that decision.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I love that you’re asking this question, because this is something that I have started to really, really speak out more about, because exactly what you just shared, it’s so nuanced, it’s so layered, and it’s probably one of the most misunderstood, kind of judged-upon concepts that are out there in the healing space.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, what I can share is from my own personal lived experience, and kind of the journey to that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, we don’t become, like, as survivors, we don’t suddenly one day wake up and say, I’m not gonna speak to my dad ever again. You know, like, that’s just not the way it works. This was a decision that came after years upon years upon years of holding onto hope that this person was gonna change.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that this person was going to not even necessarily change, at least own up and take responsibility for the harm that they had caused. And in my case, that day never came. And in fact, he continued to do even more harm.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, as I continued, as I… as I journeyed through my recovery and healing, and in my heart of hearts, when I entered into my, my journey.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I had full-on… not just hopes, I had expectations that by me taking this step, me getting better, me, quitting drinking, all of that kind of stuff, because, you know, in my chaos, I know, I know that I had harmed my sisters, I had harmed my family, you know, I was wild, you know? Like, I… from 15 to 29, like, you know, alcohol ruled my life, and when you’re… when that is your number one thing.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): every day, nothing else matters, right? It is a very selfish disease, right? Like, which is all about me numbing myself, not dealing, all of that kind of stuff. And so I knew that I had caused… I had caused harm, you know, from the… my way of coping with the… with the trauma and all of that kind of stuff. And so when I entered into recovery, I was committed, and I also, expected that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they would, then follow suit, right? That they would then start looking at themselves, and that they would then, you know, get inspired and start, like, healing themselves, because when you start going into this journey, and you start seeing the benefits in your life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You want the people that you love the most to have that, too, right? You want them to have peace, you want them to have, you know, the sobriety, you want them to have the connections, you know, the relationships, all of that kind of stuff, all the beautiful things that start to unfold when you do the work and you start to heal. I wanted them so desperately to have that, too.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But unfortunately, in my case, that wasn’t the case with them. What it actually did was, I was a full-on mirror to them.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And they were not ready to look at themselves, right? They were not ready to face, because by them facing and taking responsibility, that means… that meant they had to take ownership of their own stuff.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And as you know, many of us, you know, culturally, we come from those families where you don’t talk about the family stuff, you know, you don’t share about it publicly, you don’t speak on it, you know, what happened in the past, days in the past, leave it in the past, right? We don’t speak about those things. We, especially publicly. Are you kidding me? Like, that is a big no-no in our
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And all of that was very… it was very detrimental, because I started healing out loud very early on in my journey. I started writing. Writing is super therapeutic for me. I started posting on social media, I started speaking publicly, like, it just really… one thing kind of led to the other, and the thing that kept me going was that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): every time that I would speak up on these things, I would have people come to me and share their Me Too stories, right? They’re like, oh my goodness, you just put words into, like, my experience, I thought I was the only one. Oh, like, all these kind of things, right? And I so really discovered that it was bigger than me. This whole healing out loud thing was even bigger than me. It was a bigger mission that was actually having ripple effects that were just… that were beyond me, right? And so…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Anyway, so I, you know, continued on my journey and stuff like that, and I made several attempts.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): to try to repair my relationship with my dad, because at the end of the day, and this is what hurts the most, is that, when there’s… when… when I made that decision, there was a deep grief, deep grief, that… that hole in me will never, ever be filled. Like, I can tell you that now, because it’s been several years, and I’ve come to accept that this is something that I’m going to live with. I just learned to manage it, right? And the reason why there is grief
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): There is because there was such deep love.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? Because ultimately, even though, you know, my dad was my primary abuser, even though, you know, he’s the one who caused me the most harm in the world, I still loved him. You know, I still wanted to be his little girl. I still wanted to have, you know, this… I held on to hope that one day we would have, you know, this healed relationship.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and I didn’t ask for much, I just wanted him to acknowledge. You know, to say, like, hey, like, I’m sorry that I, like, I did this to you, I’m sorry, or just even acknowledge that he did stuff, right? But…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, my dad’s also narcissistic, too, so very difficult, you know, when you’re dealing with a narcissist that, you know, can never see his wrong, and everything gets turned on you.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so, you know, for me, it ended up happening where there was a breaking point. I’m not gonna get into super big details, but, basically, I expected him to really own up. He had done something that was really hurtful to our entire family, and I held the expectation that he was finally going to own up, he was finally going to take responsibility, and he did the exact opposite. And that’s when I had to really draw a line, and I was like, enough.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I can’t anymore. And so that’s when I made that decision that it just no longer was safe for me. You know, now that I had my own family, it was no longer safe for me to continue holding on to this hope that he was going to become this person, that he was just clearly not becoming. And he had no intention. No intentions of, you know, rectifying the situation or anything like that, right? So, you know, for my own safety, for my own continued healing.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I made the difficult choice and decision to, just, you know, kind of cut him from my life, right? And, it is still something that is so… it’s deeply painful.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But I have no regrets, to be honest, because the sense of peace that I now have, you know, is, yeah, like, I just… I’ve finally kind of… that deep wound is healing. There’s a scab there, you know, and one day the scab will peel off, and there’ll be, you know, a scar there that will always remind me of that wound.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But it doesn’t… it wasn’t something that, you know, I just woke up one day and I was like, oh, I’m not gonna speak to him, because I don’t want to deal with him. No, this was, like, a consistent
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): year after year, trying, trying, holding onto hope, all of that kind of stuff, right? And he just continued to cause not only my self-harm, but my entire family, and continues to do so. Like, to this day. You know, he has lost everything in his life, and he still chooses to walk the path that he’s always walked, where he’s the victim, you know, everyone else is against him, all of that kind of, like, mentality and mindset, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, it’s a very nuanced, very difficult, very misunderstood,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): kind of topic, but I’ve actually been speaking out a lot more about it, and again, the conversations I have with others that can really relate have been, like, so validating.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and also, reminds me how important it is to kind of speak out about these things, right? Because on the outside, if you just hear it and you don’t know the context, it could sound, like, harsh, or, like, people will judge you, like, oh, but you hear all the things, but he’s your dad! Oh, but, like, forgive and forget, oh, like, all these things, right? And it’s like, you, like, you… yes, I’ve… and, you know, I’ve also done, you know, so much to try to, like, salvage this, and it just… there comes a point when you’re the only one
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that’s paddling the boat, and the other person is just, like, you know, not helping at all. You know, so…
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and I mean, you know, I feel like you speak to a couple truths, right? Like, number one, we cannot control other people’s journeys, and if your father has been on whatever journey he’s in, and that’s hurtful to you all.
Jessica Dueñas: you can’t stop him from that. I think the second thing that you said that really jumped out at me was that you didn’t, like, wake up… this wasn’t your dream, right? And I think about, you know, several books that I have, like, recently… well, one book that I’ve recently read, and then another one that I’ve been diving into. I think it was Kelly McDaniel’s Mother Hunger, and then right now I started listening to Ingrid Clayton’s Fawning.
Jessica Dueñas: Both of them talk about the fact that when parents… I mean, you know, mother hunger’s about moms, but when parents are causing harm to their children, their child will literally do everything possible to still justify holding onto a relationship, that it is never this natural instinct for a child. Like, a child will almost choose the harm first for the sake of keeping that relationship with the parent.
Jessica Dueñas: before they end it. So, to get to the point that you said, that you had to let go, you know, it’s like people need to also believe people when they say, like, I made this decision, and you need to trust me in my decision, as opposed to re-traumatizing me by asking me to go into detail about all the things to justify it. You know, it’s like, if people aren’t in your position, they don’t understand it. But I think that it’s so important to validate, and so I do
Jessica Dueñas: appreciate you speaking to that. The other thing I wanted to ask you about that had jumped out from hearing you speak, you talked about the breaking cycles part, and I love how you talked at one point about tag-teaming with your husband when you’re like, you’re like, hey, kids, I’m overwhelmed, mama’s overwhelmed, I need a moment.
Jessica Dueñas: How has your dynamic with your significant other played into this cycle breaking? Like, is he on a similar healing journey, or is he just supportive? I’m so curious how that dynamic works.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, great question. Again, so good. So, on the outside looking in, you know, my husband and I come from totally different backgrounds. He came from, you know, a very healthy family.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): hardworking parents, immigrants from Portugal, you know, very, very… worked very hard all their lives.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But on the extreme on his end, was that growing up, he actually only remembers his parents ever arguing, like, one or two times. That’s it. And, you know, so that brought this other spectrum to him, where he didn’t know how to have healthy conflict.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): He didn’t know how to navigate emotions, because same thing, his parents, all they did was work really hard, and when he was struggling, like, you know, he had a…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): a time in his life when he was being bullied at school, and he told me how painful it was for him to experience that, and he would come home, and he would cry to his mom, and his mom couldn’t comfort him. She didn’t know what to do, right? Because she also came from this lineage of, like, you know, you work hard, you provide for your kids, your kids are everything, right? But emotionals, emotions and, you know, affection? We don’t do that, you know? Like, we give you a roof over your head, food, you know, on the table, clothes.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): all that kind of stuff, right? But, like, that deep connection part?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): was kind of missing, and so, you know, when we got together and, you know, we… I went on my journey and all of that kind of stuff, because him and I have been together for 16 years now, and so he has seen every version of me, and every version, you know, and we’ve worked through a ton of things together. We’ve gone through… we were together for 10 years before we became parents, so we definitely had a very solid, stable foundation in our relationship.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Before we became parents.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, and then… but of course, when you get into the journey, it’s totally different, right? Because everything you thought you were going to do suddenly gets challenged, right? Because it’s like, this is real life here. And, he started to also feel triggered when he would experience, you know, the toddler ages is when we both remember that something clicked, that things were starting to become challenging, right? Because it’s these big feelings, and we didn’t know how to hold those feelings.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, how do we teach them? You know, we were taught to just, like, it gets smacked out of you, right? If you’re, like, if you’re gonna, like, react that way, all that kind of stuff. And we both knew that that was not what we wanted to do. And so, we both were on… very much on the same page that we were gonna do whatever we could so that we wouldn’t have these same patterns, right? And so, for him, he had to go on his own journey. He’s still on that, like, journey of learning how to,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, hold his own emotions, process them, you know, especially men, you know, like, European men, like, you know, it’s, like, tough, strong, you know, like, you never see them cry, like, all this kind of stuff, right? And he’s really learned to challenge that in himself, because he also doesn’t want to pass that down, right? Like, the other day, he was playing soccer, he was passing the ball back and forth with our two older boys.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that night, because we always, like, you know, kind of come together afterwards, and he was telling me, he’s like, you know, I was thinking today, when I was, like, playing soccer with the boys, how my dad never played with me. He’s like, never. You know, he’s like, I was… and he was, like, an only child for the first 7 years of his life, and then his brother came, and then, you know, another 7 years after his little sister came.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, you know, he said, like, he remembers, like, how lonely it felt, and how he wanted, like, that, you know, kind of fatherly love, and like, you know, we grow up in North America, we see.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): on TV, these, like, perfect TV families, and, like, all this stuff, and we’re like, wait a minute, like, that’s not my family, you know? Like, and you start wanting, craving what you see, but you’re not getting that, right? And so, you know, so things like that started to really, like, he became aware of, that he was like, no, I want to be able to, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): give my kids what I was never given, right? And so he’s cycle breaking in his own way, right? Even though it’s not from, like, abuse, addiction, things like that I experienced in my life.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, he has his own things that he’s working through, and we’re a team. We are a complete team when it comes to our parenting and in life. Like, we truly have, you know, and again, this didn’t come easy. This is not, you know, that, like, natural for us. We have help. We have resources, we have supports that we lean on to be able to help us, you know, as a couple, individually, and as parents, so that we can
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): do better for our kids, right? And we are both breaking cycles in different ways, in different ways, and we still, you know, we have deep talks sometimes. At the end of the day, after, like, an intense day, because, like I said, now my kids are… there’s four of them, my baby, he’s almost two now, he’s walking, he’s, like, getting into things, right? They have lots of, like… and they feel so incredibly safe at home.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that they just lose their marbles. You know, like, they are just in high energy and tense.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): all the feelings, because they feel safe. They know that they can be that way, right, around us. And, you know, at the end of the day, sometimes, like, we debrief with each other, and we have these really beautiful, long discussions about, like, you know, our struggles and things that, like, the shame that comes, and all that kind of stuff, and we, like, help each other out, right? And, like, and remind each other how good we’re both doing, and highlight the things that we’re actually noticing of each other, all of that kind of stuff, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and it really is a partnership, and in order for it to be that way. We do have slight parenting, like, different styles, but, you know, it kind of complements it, right? Like, I’m more of, like, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like, more, like, like, more structured, more like, you know, I, like, I’m very, like, you know, kind of, in a sense, disciplined.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, where dad is, like, you know, kind of fun dad, he’s like, you know, like, it’s just different dynamics, right? But it complements it well, right? Yeah, it’s a really beautiful journey, and it’s something that is very humbling. Very humbling.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, well, I love that you mentioned, kind of, like, pushing back against shame when you’re debriefing, because I am curious, you know, since you are both obviously part of Greater Family Systems, do you ever deal with any, say, either family members or just people in general being judgy towards you for your choice in parenting style? Because, you know, for example, you’ve never used the term gentle parenting, and I’m not saying that what you are
Jessica Dueñas: doing is quote-unquote gentle parenting, but, you know, I see the jokes on social media when you have
Jessica Dueñas: old-school parents who are criticizing people who are doing things differently. So I’m curious how you deal with that if it comes up in your lives.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): All the time. All the time. And I love that you brought up gentle parenting. It is kind of like this, like, trendy term, you know, and I consider what we’re doing, rather than gentle parenting, it’s conscious parenting, right?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): The difference is, is that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): we are very conscious, we are very present and aware of, like, what we are doing, right? And we have to be that way in order for us to be able to then repair, right? When we mess up and all of that kind of stuff, right? When we’re unconscious, and we are just operating from a way of, kind of automatic, you know, autopilot, all of that kind of stuff, or disconnection, you know, like dissociation, a lot of parents who, you know, come from trauma.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they’re very dissociated most of our child, like, the childhood, right? They don’t even remember when you ask them, like, well, what was this like when we were kids? They’re like, I don’t know. And it’s because they were in survival mode. You know, like, that’s when, you know, you’re repeating the cycles. You’re repeating, like, the reactions, all of that kind of stuff. So rather than
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, gentle parenting, and I see the memes too, like, like, you know, like, people talk about gentle parenting, but my kids aren’t gentle, like, those kind of things.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But, yeah, it is definitely a conversation that we have, and we have to have firm boundaries with our families, because they love to come and tell us, you know, like, oh, you know, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like, their opinions of how we should be parenting our children, right? And sometimes I have to be brave on my end, and I have to stand up for my kids, because, you know, certain family members will talk to them in ways that are not okay. You know, like, it’s like that, we don’t talk to our kids that way, like, you know, please don’t speak to them that way, right? And then they come with backlash, oh, you’re spoiling them, that’s why this and this and that. I’m like, no, like, for me, this is abuse, and…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): abuse is not tolerated in our home. We’re learning ways, you know, of navigating, you know, our parenting with them, and it’s different, right? It’s different, and we’ve had to have many, many, many, many conversations. You know, like my in-laws, there are,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): some of our primary caregivers, and we love that. We love the relationship that they have with our kids. It’s so close. They love them. They’re there, like, twice a week, you know, and they’re… and they’re… they’ve semi-raised them, in a sense, right? But there have been things that we notice
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): That we need to nip in the butt right away, right? Like, certain things that, I can’t think of, like, a specific example, but certain things that we just, like, we’re like, no, we don’t like that, you know, and so we have to… we have to, like, stand up to them in a gentle way, and express to them that, you know, hey, like, this is not okay, like, this is not how we’re raising them, right? And then you just have to kind of put up with, you know, the comments that you’re gonna get, right? Like, oh, you’re… you’re spoiling them, oh, you know, at their age.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Or, oh, like, this, this, and that, and like, it’s like, okay, that’s fine. You know, and one of the things is that,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): and this is something I had to overcome, I personally had to overcome this, is getting upset with kids for kids being kids. You know, children are children. You know, they’re loud, they’re rambunctious, they have energy, you know, they love to, like, run and play and jump and do all these things, right? They’re… they’re kids, and, like, one of the modalities that I’m deeply, like, passionate about is human design, and when we learn about the human design of our children, it makes so much sense.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so, without going into full-on details about that, because that could be a whole other podcast.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Many of my children are, energy, like, they’re energy beings, and so, they are, from the moment they wake up, their batteries are full, to the end of the day when their batteries are drained, and they go to bed immediately. Their head hits the pillow, and they are drained, right? And I’m also an energy being, so is Nelson.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And my husband. And for them, they need a lot of movement and stimulation and, like, you know, and things like that. And so learning about that with them has been a big game changer, and I don’t want to shut that down in them, because that’s how they are designed.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Right? And so, for our families, it may look like they’re just out of control and wild, but it’s like, they’re just being kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, like, they’re just being kids, and I’m not gonna shut them down for being kids, because I was shut down for being a kid.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, I was shut down for, like, having this, like, energy burst, and, like, doing all these crazy things, and, like, you know, bouncing off the walls, all of that kind of stuff, right? It’s like, no, like, I had to really decondition myself from getting upset at them for being kids.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, like, a common example is.
Jessica Dueñas: You know, and this is, like, a big test, is, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, when you’re at the dinner table, and one of them, you know, this always happens, the minute that we bring out an open cup, there’s gonna be a spill, you know? And so, like, one of them will, like, have, like, you know, water in their cup, and then they spill it, right? Because they’re just, like, flailing, and this and that. And that’s a true test of, like, you know, growing up, I would, like… it was a big deal if I made a mess. It was, like, yelling, you know.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): what did you do? Look what you did, blah blah blah blah blah, you know? And, like, this, like, reaction, right? And, like, the amount of restraint it takes for me to, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): It’s like, okay, they’re a kid, it was an accident, you know, they didn’t mean to, like, do that because, like, you know, they’re just being kids, right? And so really restraining and being like, okay, like, it was an accident, buddy, let’s clean it up together, you know, let’s grab a cloth and, like, those kind of things, right? They’re just being kids, you know, where it’s like, they don’t need discipline over that, like, it was an accident, you know, like, and so things like that is just, like, it’s so much…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): like I said, conscious parenting. We’re conscious of it, right? We’re aware, we’re present with them, and we know that this is just, like, you know, like, we can’t be upset with them for being kids, you know, this is… because what happens is that when you…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): when you’re… when you kind of shut them down, they shut down, and then that’s when the conditioning and the programming starts happening, where, you know, they start to silence themselves, they start to self-censor, they start to… they can’t be safe to be who they are, and then that’s what leads to a whole slew of things in adulthood, right? People-pleasing, depression, anxiety, all of these things, because they were never allowed to be who they are, right? It was not okay, they would get in trouble.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and so things like that are definitely a journey that both of us are very mindful of, very conscious of, and it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. You know, the cup thing, too, going back to the good old social media, like, I’ve seen these reels that joke about that same moment, right? That the cup is spilled, and, like, let’s say if it was me spilling the cup, and how would my mom respond versus to, like, the baby, and, like, how now if they spill it, it’s like, oh, it’s okay, but then, you know, back in the day, spilling the cup was, like, the end of it all, right? But, I mean, you speak of real truth, and I think about…
Jessica Dueñas: How even in adulthood, if I’ve done anything like that, like accidentally knock something over, and even me, myself, bracing as if, like, other grown adults are going to get just so angry with me over something so innocent, but it is, you get conditioned over time to, like.
Jessica Dueñas: to not make mistakes, and if you make a mistake, that it’s really not okay, and it really… I mean, it’s rooted deep in. And so, I’m so glad that you brought that up.
Jessica Dueñas: So, speaking of your kids, I feel like, kind of like a last big question I kind of have is, what have your children taught you about healing?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Or the reclamation process, that you didn’t.
Jessica Dueñas: actually expect.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Hmm.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, I mean, the whole… the whole journey has taught me everything, like, really how they are just, like, a reflection of little me, you know? Like…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Anytime that I have a really big reaction, I almost, like.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I depersonalize it in the sense that it’s, like, it’s not really grown-up me having that reaction, it’s actually little me having that reaction, you know, inside, because of, like, you know, it wasn’t safe at one time, and all of that kind of stuff. They truly are my mirrors, every single day, you know, and the other thing is that…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): just like many of us, we were told so many things growing up, right? We were, like, preached upon, we were, like, you know, like, told ad nauseam certain things.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But then the actions were so different, right? There was this cognitive dissonance growing up, where, like, for example, my dad had this thing about us, like, swearing, but meanwhile, every other word that he spoke was a swear word, you know? Like, these, like, kind of, like, weird things like that, right? And, like, for us, time and time again, it’s proven that we can tell them anything.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): But they are not gonna listen, they are gonna watch us. They’re gonna watch what we’re doing, they’re gonna watch how we’re handling life, they’re gonna watch how, you know, even in our interactions, like, with each other, me and Nelson.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): if we have disagreements with each other, you know, like, they see it, right? And they come, they’re like, you know, they’re, like, very, like,
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they get very nervous about that, because they don’t see that. Like, me and Nelson, we do not, like, scream at each other, like, it’s just… that’s… we have a mutual deep love and respect towards each other that we don’t, like, argue that way, right? But, you know, we’re human, and sometimes, you know, we’re gonna have bad days and things like that.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And we allow for them to kind of witness, you know, kind of a little bit of a…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): of a fracture happen, and then the repair happened, right? And we open the questions up, right? And so, really, really knowing that
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): they are watching us, right? And they’re watching what we’re doing every day, and that’s what’s the blueprint that’s gonna be for them, of how they’re gonna treat, you know, their significant others when they’re older, right? It’s not what we’re telling them every day, it’s really the example that we’re giving them, and that, for me, was…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): a really big wake-up call, right? Because I could say all the right things, you know, but if I’m doing, like, a totally different thing, they’re gonna pick up on the things, you know, that they’re actually witnessing, right? And so, yeah, they are my greatest teachers, my biggest mirrors, you know, and also my biggest why. It’s the reason why I do what I do.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): you know, I just have to look at them, you know, like, for a second, and I get tears in my eyes, so I’m just like, oh my gosh, these are my babies. Like, even last night, they all crawled into our bed, you know, and I just, like, turn and look, and there they are with me, you know, and safe, and sleeping, and I’m just, like, I get so emotional, you know, because it’s, like, little simple things like that, that I know that they’re just so tender, and that they feel safe.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And that, we’re able to, you know, provide them a healthy, happy, real home. You know, it’s not perfect.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, but it’s real. It’s real, and it’s tender, and, you know, we’re doing it together, and they’re healing alongside me, you know, the generations. It’s something that they’re picking up on, too, right? Because these are the things that they’re going to pass down to their kids, right? So, how important that is.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that, Abby. It’s just, like, it makes my heart all warm and fuzzy. It’s seriously so beautiful to hear, and it makes me excited to continue my journey with my daughter, since, you know, I’ve only been doing this for 9 months, so it’s really exciting just hearing you and your experience speak to this. So, Abby, I guess anything that you would say to anybody who is looking to start? I think about, you know.
Jessica Dueñas: You had mentioned earlier that you’d been in this journey, right? You’d been sober for about 4 years before you became a mother, so you kind of had some background in some of this work before stepping into parenthood.
Jessica Dueñas: What would you say to maybe the mother who is already a mother, and maybe she’s just now stepping into, like, day one of sobriety, and who’s, like, feeling overwhelmed, might be feeling some shame about the fact that, like, her child has seen her drink, right? Or anything like that. Where… where does she go from here?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): I will say what I say to all my clients, you know, to, you know, friends, support, support, support. You cannot do this by yourself. You cannot…
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, and you don’t have to. You know, number one, you’re not alone.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): You know, that you’re… there’s nothing wrong… fundamentally wrong with you, you know, that… that you’re not the only one in the world that is experiencing this, and… and all that… that shame that comes, you know, from feeling like I’m the only one, no one gets it, you know, if only they knew, all those kind of things, right? You’re not alone, you’re not the only one, and that support and help is available, you know? And it sometimes is a bit of a journey to find that support and resources, that’s why I do what I do.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): because I became my, like, a resource.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): that I so desperately needed in my early days that I had to hunt and look for and all of that kind of stuff, but it really is a community. It is really leaning in on resources and supports as much as you can, because you cannot do this by yourself. And you won’t, you know? It will just lead to shame and isolation, and you don’t need to. You don’t need to suffer in silence, right? And that’s my biggest message, is that you’re not alone, and that you can… you can
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): will heal. We do recover, you know, and there is hope, but not by yourself.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and also what I always think about, too, like, when I’m facilitating sobriety support meetings, and there are, say, the parents stepping in who… their children have seen them at their worst.
Jessica Dueñas: you know, I’m always like, well, this is an opportunity for your children to also witness what healing looks like, and that we can turn things around, right? And so, yes, they’ve seen you in all your phases, and they can also see you make the decision to be the one that changes things. And so, I think that that’s incredibly powerful, too, for anyone who already has had kids before getting sober, you know, because that’s a lot of people. You know, for me, it’s a gift. I’m so grateful that I got sober
Jessica Dueñas: first, but, you know, I know that that is not the reality for many, many people in sobriety spaces. So, I mean, Abby, thank you so, so, so much for your time today. Again, this has been beautiful, and I could speak to you for hours, but if anybody who was listening did want to follow you, or did want to maybe take part of some of the work that you offer, what are the best ways for people to find you?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): Yeah, so Instagram is my jam, that’s where I’m mainly present on, and my handle is mavi, so it’s at V-E-E.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And, that’s just what… how you say, Abby in Spanish, abi, that’s, like, it’s kind of a play to my inner child, you know, growing up, because people always ask, like, what does that mean? Like, you know? And then the other thing, yeah, if somebody wants to explore what it would look like to potentially, you know, have me as their support, as their guide, as their mentor, I do offer a complimentary 60-minute call, where we kind of dive into kind of your leadership style.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): in human design, so there’s a mini analysis that I do in there, and I really discover what your unique blueprint is in leading, whether it’s in your home, your communities, in your business.
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): And so I love those kind of sessions, they’re free, and then if it makes sense, then we have an opportunity to explore what it would look like to work deeper in one of my coaching containers.
Jessica Dueñas: Awesome. Well, Abby, thank you again so much. I so appreciate you being here with me. Any last note that you’d like to say to anybody before we jump off?
Abigail Teixeira (she/her/ella): No, thank you so much for your time. You are such a gem, and I’m so honored to be on this path with you, you know, as a recovering, healing Latina woman and a mother. You know, this work is so important, and so I’m really, really honored that, you know, we had this important conversation together, and I look forward to many more connections!
I sit down with award-winning investigative journalist Shoshana Walter, author of Rehab: An American Scandal, to discuss the hidden truths of America’s rehab industry and what her reporting reveals about treatment, recovery, and justice.
Jessica Dueñas: Hi everyone, welcome back. It has been quite a break here at Bottomless to Sober, but I am super happy to pick things back up today with a very special guest.
Jessica Dueñas: I have award-winning investigative journalist Shoshana Walter, who has a new book out called Rehab, an American Scandal. She is here to talk about some of the work, some of the research that she is uncovering, especially with some of the problems that do happen in these facilities. Those of you who know my story know I was in and out of treatment about 7 or 8 times, and so I’m really, really curious to hear what Shoshana has
Jessica Dueñas: say, if you’ve been following the podcast, you know that a few weeks ago, I actually interviewed Robert Marino, who runs a treatment facility, and so he gave us one perspective, but I do think that it is so important to be well-informed while you go into your journey, or while you explore your options for others. So, here we have a fresh perspective with some research, and again, it’s a complete honor to have you, Shoshana, so thank you so much for being here.
Jessica Dueñas: And yes…
Shoshana Walter: Thank you.
Jessica Dueñas: Anyone who doesn’t know your work, can you tell me a little bit about what drew you into, investigating the rehab industry?
Shoshana Walter: Sure, yeah. I have been a long-time investigative reporter, mostly focused on the criminal justice system. And so, about 8 years ago, I was a reporter at Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting.
Shoshana Walter: looking at drug courts and diversion court programs, and I just sort of stumbled across this
Shoshana Walter: rehab program that was being utilized by courts throughout Arkansas and Oklahoma, and…
Shoshana Walter: when I started doing a little bit of research on this program.
Shoshana Walter: I learned that it had been founded by a former poultry industry executive, and that the program was sending participants to work without pay at chicken processing plants, where they were making chicken products for KFC and Popeyes and Walmart and PetSmart, and they weren’t getting paid anything, they were working long hours in very
Shoshana Walter: Difficult, injury-prone jobs.
Shoshana Walter: And this was predominantly their sole form of what they were calling treatment, was this uncompensated work.
Shoshana Walter: And, so I was just totally caught by surprise by this, because over the course of the opioid epidemic, I feel like there has been this major shift in our country of…
Shoshana Walter: lawmakers and policymakers, court officials, starting to view addiction as a disease worthy of compassion and worthy of medical care instead of incarceration. That’s the idea behind a lot of these drug court and diversion court programs. So I was really…
Shoshana Walter: Perplexed that
Shoshana Walter: a form of indentured servitude would be considered treatment by so many of these officials. And it made me want to understand how common that is, and…
Shoshana Walter: if that’s a major component of our treatment system, which is something that, yes, I did find it was, you know, what does the rest of our treatment landscape look like, and is it helping people the way that it should, if we want to get more people out of this cycle of addiction?
Jessica Dueñas: That is terrifying to hear, and honestly, it’s also not shocking. I really… I wish I were better informed about the treatment system, and I’m sure you’re gonna shed a little bit of knowledge here today, because
Jessica Dueñas: from the different facilities that I went to when I was struggling, one thing that I definitely noticed was that there was no one type of method. It didn’t seem to be that there was any standardization of practice or, like, what is best for the patients. I experienced very, very different treatments at the different facilities that I went to. So I’m curious, once you started digging.
Jessica Dueñas: What… what did you notice about how these different treatment facilities operate?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, that’s such a good question, and I kind of am curious. I want to know a little bit more about your different experiences in these treatment programs.
Shoshana Walter: But, you know, as you just explained.
Shoshana Walter: there’s so much variability in treatment, so it’s very hard to break it down into broader categories. But that is… that is kind of… that was kind of my approach with this book, is really understanding what the treatment landscape broadly looks like, and what are the problems in this system that are… that are preventing it from working the way that it really needs to be working.
Shoshana Walter: And so, what I found, and this is specifically for opioid addiction, I know that, Jessica, you had
Shoshana Walter: you had… you had experience with alcohol addiction previously. But with opioid addiction, you know, there’s… there’s, these programs that I was just talking about that are often utilized by the court system.
Shoshana Walter: Or utilized by families that don’t have the financial resources to send one of their loved ones to an insurance-funded program, for example, or a longer-term program.
Shoshana Walter: You have medication-assisted treatments like Suboxone or buprenorphine and methadone, that are very effective for opioid addiction, and
Shoshana Walter: have been proven to reduce overdose deaths by more than 50%, but what I found there is that these medications are really still difficult for patients to access, and also to remain on.
Shoshana Walter: And there’s a long history behind that there. And I also looked at the barriers that exist to treatment for many people, particularly people who are lower income or living in poverty, who don’t have insurance coverage. It can be still incredibly difficult for people to access treatment, despite the fact that the Affordable Care Act expanded treatment coverage
Shoshana Walter: to millions of Americans.
Shoshana Walter: And then the other, kind of.
Shoshana Walter: bucket of treatment, you could say, that I looked at.
Shoshana Walter: were, these insurance-funded programs that really proliferated with the Affordable Care Act. And those are… those are limited by what insurance companies are willing to pay for, and so they’re designed around maximizing billable services.
Shoshana Walter: And oftentimes, the most insurance companies are willing to pay for are these 30-day programs, or programs that last maybe no more than a month or two.
Shoshana Walter: And, the problem that I’ve seen again and again with these programs, especially with opioid addiction, is that people go in, they complete the program, even the most well-intended programs, people complete those programs, they leave, and then they relapse, because they…
Shoshana Walter: Do not have the support to which they grew accustomed in rehab, and that treatment program did not necessarily help those individuals come up with a plan of utilizing and accessing support for once they leave.
Shoshana Walter: And so, we now know from research that has been done that someone who completes a 30-day program is much more likely to overdose and die in the year following treatment than someone who failed to complete that program at all.
Shoshana Walter: So there’s a way that we’re funding treatment in this country that’s actually fueling the problem, contributing to relapse rates.
Shoshana Walter: And that’s also contributing, unfortunately, to many overdose deaths.
Jessica Dueñas: Hmm.
Jessica Dueñas: Now, I’m so curious, with regard to the people who successfully complete a program exit, and they are more likely to die of a drug overdose in that first year. Now, is it because of their tolerance that their body has kind of reset that tolerance in those 30 days that they stayed clean, and so it’s just, when they go out and they relapse, it’s over, essentially?
Shoshana Walter: Exactly, yes, exactly. Someone enters the program. Oftentimes these programs require obstinence from all substances, including, perhaps, addiction treatment medications.
Shoshana Walter: And so that person then stops using the substance they had been using, their tolerance level goes down, and then when they leave the rehab, and they often relapse.
Shoshana Walter: Because their tolerance level has gone down, they use the same amount of opioid that they previously had used, and now it’s too much for them, and it leads to overdose.
Shoshana Walter: And the same is true, also, for stints of incarceration. I think the statistic is something like.
Shoshana Walter: Someone who is recently released from a period of incarceration is 40 times more likely to overdose and die following that period of incarceration than someone from the general population of opioid users.
Shoshana Walter: So, these programs that Segregate and isolate people kind of away from their usual surroundings.
Shoshana Walter: They can be godsends, but also they can lead to increased risk of overdose death, especially when the supports that people need post-rehab are just not there.
Jessica Dueñas: I mean, what you’re saying, honestly, Shoshana, lines up exactly with so many of my lived experiences. So, yes, my personal addiction was to alcohol. However, I was always housed in treatment facilities with people recovering primarily from opiate addiction, some from methamphetamines and other things, but I was in Kentucky, so definitely an area where you’re going to see a lot of opiate addiction there. And, one of the residential
Jessica Dueñas: programs that I was in. It was a 35-day program, and I remember we were sitting, we had,
Jessica Dueñas: throughout the day, we had, like, group, and so in one of the groups, we were being led by a counselor, and I so remember her saying, this is a fortress, and here you’re safe, but when you exit, you know, you’re still taking… everything that you brought in with you is still going back out with you. And really, they were trying to encourage people to, say, consider sober living options and some sort of, like, transitional housing
Jessica Dueñas: before going right back home. But I’ll be honest, you know, like, when I was having those conversations, I was very resistant to the idea, like, I didn’t want to go into sober housing, I just wanted to go home. And of course, I immediately relapsed when I left, but, you know, I drank alcohol, blacked out, and that was… in a sense, that was it for me. I was alright, thankfully. But I… I definitely remember stories of people that I was in treatment with.
Jessica Dueñas: who are not here anymore, because they were told the same thing, they didn’t have that, you know, transitional support, and then they struggled greatly. So I’m curious,
Jessica Dueñas: Do you think that there is a way for people to…
Jessica Dueñas: recover or work through, like, their chronic addiction and transition? Maybe not to full abstinence, as you were mentioning, but is there a way to recover, perhaps without using a treatment facility where you’re not pulled from your environment and you can kind of start to work on some of those processes, or what do you think there?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, I mean, I think…
Shoshana Walter: It’s really hard to say, because recovery is such a personal, individualized experience, and what may work for one person might not work for another person. I mean, you know, the rehab that I was talking about before, that…
Shoshana Walter: required people to work in chicken plants. You know, there were definitely people that I interviewed at this program who said, you know, that’s what they needed, you know? So, I feel like different things can really work for different people, but I have seen…
Shoshana Walter: that…
Shoshana Walter: In my experience, you know, having interviewed hundreds of people in and out of recovery, it’s often a long-term process of change.
Shoshana Walter: And so, treatment that’s longer term and that provides that ongoing support.
Shoshana Walter: is really incredibly key. And I think this is especially true for people who are the most marginalized, you know, who maybe come into their addictions already
Shoshana Walter: facing the consequences of structural inequality, but also, you know, the longer someone remains in their addiction, the more marginalized they become, because in our country, there are so many consequences that
Shoshana Walter: are caused by being in addiction. I mean, it can come along with additional mental health and physical, trauma.
Shoshana Walter: It can lead to criminal charges and convictions. All of that can lead to, loss of…
Shoshana Walter: voting rights, inability to find a job, inability to find housing, difficulty accessing food and healthcare and transportation. You know, there are these consequences that come along with addiction that just continue to mount the longer you remain in addiction.
Shoshana Walter: And those consequences become as much of a barrier to recovery for a lot of people, as the addiction itself. You know, it can become an obstacle in and of itself.
Shoshana Walter: And so, I think that is also one really important piece that is missing from our treatment system. It’s what researchers refer to as recovery capital.
Shoshana Walter: And that is the mixture of internal and external resources that people need in order to enter and sustain their recovery. And that can include social and community support, but it also includes all these other aspects, you know.
Shoshana Walter: housing, financial stability, job, food, healthcare, transportation, you know, these are the elements that are really going to allow people to sustain their recovery. And these are the elements that are missing for a lot of people when they leave treatment. And so, if those elements are missing, if a treatment program is not addressing those gaps.
Shoshana Walter: Then relapse for many people is very likely.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, and you know, when you were talking about the healthcare piece, I was reading, you know, just learning more about your work. Like I mentioned before we went live on this call, I was reading about the young woman, Jade Dass, whose story you covered starting a few years ago, and, you know, I’d recommend to anyone listening to Google it. I’ll also post a link to some of the resources about this story, but
Jessica Dueñas: This was a both powerful and heartbreaking story about a young woman who struggled with addiction, was
Jessica Dueñas: on a path of recovery was using Suboxone as prescribed appropriately by a medical doctor, and then that was kind of used against her to take the child, her baby, away eventually, who was perfectly healthy, and it’s just kind of been this ongoing custody battle for her to have her child, and then, like, you know, left and right, all these other barriers, like you were just mentioning, Shoshana, were just, like.
Jessica Dueñas: thrown at her, and, you know, in this case, it’s impacting her, not just her recovery, but her ability to be a parent, but yes, like, these barriers pop up, and it becomes very easy to turn around and just say, you know what, I’m done. I give up, because it seems like there are so many barriers coming across people, and I think that it’s so important to look at a whole picture.
Jessica Dueñas: And sometimes I remember in some of these spaces, you know, being told, well, just don’t drink. And it’s not so simple. You know, I wish it was just so simple to put down whatever substance it is that we’re addicted to, but it’s really complex.
Jessica Dueñas: Shoshana, one of the things about my story that really struck me when reading about some of the work that you’re doing.
Jessica Dueñas: When I was in treatment in 2020, I also didn’t have great judgment, and I fell in love with someone who I was in treatment with, and his drug of choice was opiates.
Jessica Dueñas: He did not live, unfortunately, he had a relapse, shortly, you know, once the pandemic started, and we had no supports in place, you know, he did use again, and he didn’t make it, and that made things very difficult.
Jessica Dueñas: But one of the things that I think about with his journey and trying to recover from opiates was the facility that we were in also really kept, pushing us to go to AA meetings.
Jessica Dueñas: And, I mean, you know, for me, sure, with an addiction to alcohol, if I choose to use language like an alcoholic, maybe that could be more applicable to me. I mean, I also don’t think it’s people’s first language, and I don’t personally attend 12-step programs.
Jessica Dueñas: I know it works for a lot of people, though, but I remember when he was still alive, and when he was starting to struggle, I would say, but why are you going to AA? You are not an alcoholic. Your drug of choice is not alcohol. You don’t even.
Shoshana Walter: Right.
Jessica Dueñas: alcohol. And that was really frustrating for me to see, because I remember being in the facility and seeing people who use street drugs being told to go to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Shoshana Walter: It didn’t…
Jessica Dueñas: sense to me, and I don’t know if there’s anything that you’ve read or anything that you’ve seen to make sense of, like, that kind of a recommendation from a facility, or, like, where’s that coming from? I’m curious.
Shoshana Walter: Yeah. I mean, I think there is a huge reliance in a lot of treatment facilities on 12-step curriculum.
Shoshana Walter: And one of the reasons that is, is because in the 70s, there was a hospital chain that provided inpatient hospitalization for alcoholism.
Shoshana Walter: And, that… that facility had psychiatrists and doctors on staff, well…
Shoshana Walter: at one point, they decided they needed to cut costs, and so they got rid of a lot of those, you know, higher-paid, highly qualified staff members, and replaced them with people with lived experience, which is not necessarily a bad thing, and people who were essentially evangelizing the 12 steps. And so…
Shoshana Walter: That is kind of how the 12 steps became introduced into a lot of treatment facilities, is simply, initially, as a way to cut costs.
Shoshana Walter: And so, now a lot of treatment facilities utilize the 12 steps, and I think the evidence shows that that can be very effective for some people, but not for all people. You know, most people benefit from some sort of community recovery support group.
Shoshana Walter: But it’s not always going to be AA, and I think in a lot of cases, it actually, can make people feel,
Shoshana Walter: alienated to join when they join a group that doesn’t… that is not the right fit for them. And that’s what I found in reporting my book, Rehab in American Scandal. You know, there’s one person in my book, April Lee, who did find
Shoshana Walter: great benefits in joining 12-step groups, in her recovery. But there was another person, Chris Coon, who got back from a very dramatic experience in an exploitative rehab program, and he did not want to join.
Shoshana Walter: a 12-step group. He did not want to identify himself as… a forever addict, as,
Shoshana Walter: As, and he didn’t… and he didn’t want to just hold on to kind of this…
Shoshana Walter: this, sense of himself as addiction being a core piece of his identity. You know, he really just wanted to move on, and he was able to, thankfully, because he had recovery capital, he had a middle-class
Shoshana Walter: households. His parents helped him get on Suboxone.
Shoshana Walter: They helped support him with housing as he attended school to get a welding certificate. He was able to get a job. He applied for a number of jobs that actually rejected him because he was on Suboxone, but he eventually did find a job that allowed him to support himself.
Shoshana Walter: And he was able to move on with his life. So I think there are different pathways for different people, and that is one of the most… that is one of the scariest pieces of recovery, especially early recovery, is when the stakes are so high.
Shoshana Walter: Particularly with opioid addiction, when it can lead to overdose, you know, how do you find the type of support that’s going to work for you?
Shoshana Walter: And I think that’s why it’s incredibly important when you’re in a treatment facility that that facility help you identify what is going to be the right fit for you. How do you find that support? What makes the most sense for you personally as an individual versus…
Shoshana Walter: What makes the most sense for… You know, billable services.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And you know, that’s…
Jessica Dueñas: That’s so incredibly powerful, and I do see how that does not happen, you know, because I think about whether it was, you know, when I was in the facility, how I was thinking, or again, seeing my peers who were addicted to opiates and other substances. When we’re in those spaces, and we’re, like, on day zero or day one.
Jessica Dueñas: the… we’re the farthest from trusting ourselves, right? And so, I feel like we’re in that space where we’re almost ready to just do as we’re told, as opposed to looking inwardly to be like, huh.
Jessica Dueñas: what feels right for me? What would be the pathway that feels most beneficial to us? And sometimes, when I think about, like, the guest speakers who would come into these facilities with their many years of lived experience, some of them are very intimidating, and some of them are just like, sit down, shut up, you know.
Shoshana Walter: Oh my goodness.
Jessica Dueñas: Cotton out your ears and put it in your mouth, and, you know, just do as you’re told.
Jessica Dueñas: And when some of that is the messaging that we’re receiving early on when we’re in these facilities and, you know, people are going through their different types of withdrawal from whatever they’re coming off of, it… it can be really hard to be told, like, look inwardly and trust, like, let’s help you find what works for you. So I can see.
Shoshana Walter: Yes.
Jessica Dueñas: exactly how people can find themselves being exploited, which I know that’s some of what you discuss in your book.
Shoshana Walter: Yes, yeah, what you just described just so resonates, because I talked with so many people who, for my book, who attended some of these exploitative rehab programs.
Shoshana Walter: that we’re really using people to make a profit. And that is exactly the situation that so many of them found themselves in. You know, it’s such a vulnerable moment in so many people’s lives.
Shoshana Walter: They feel depressed, like, the self-worth is so low, they lack confidence and, and trust in their own instincts.
Shoshana Walter: And so… and then you enter a program that is incredibly prescriptive. You’re being told exactly what you just said. You can’t trust your own instincts. Your family members are being told. Don’t trust anything that they say.
Shoshana Walter: So you’re completely isolated, and so that’s how, you know, Chris Kuhn, for example, ended up in this…
Shoshana Walter: treatment program where he was supposed to live and work for 2 years. He was told he would be able to save up money for after he left rehab, that he would get counseling and medical care. And instead, what he discovered when he got to this facility is that he’d be working up to 80 hours per week
Shoshana Walter: And really, Hard, manual labor jobs, you know.
Shoshana Walter: building scaffolding at chemical plants, laying asphalt in broiling Louisiana heat, cleaning up after LSU football games, and he wasn’t getting paid. All of the money that he was earning was going back to the rehab program. He was getting a pack of cigarettes per week as his compensation.
Shoshana Walter: And he barely ever had any time for counseling. You know, I spoke with his counselor, who said that she would poke her head into his room at the end of a long workday.
Shoshana Walter: ask him how he was doing, he’d say fine, and she’d mark that off as a counseling session. So, you know, you can really see how easily this population of people can be exploited, and no one
Shoshana Walter: Almost no one believes it, because your family’s being told not to listen to you.
Shoshana Walter: You know, whoever put you there, maybe it’s a judge or a prosecutor, believes you deserve what you’re getting.
Shoshana Walter: And there’s kind of a lack of trust of the experience of the person who’s going through this. And, it can be really devastating, and there is really so much exploitation in this industry, it’s very disturbing.
Jessica Dueñas: So, I know you’ve made mention of a couple of ways in which people are exploited financially. Did you find any evidence of other ways in which people are taking advantage of when they’re in these facilities?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah,
Shoshana Walter: I found… so there’s a lot of problems with oversight in… with treatment facilities. You know, every state regulates these systems differently. In a lot of states, there are certain programs and facilities that are totally exempt from licensure.
Shoshana Walter: So, and oversight, so you have programs that identify themselves as faith-based, that are typically exempt from licensure and oversight.
Shoshana Walter: Oftentimes, if a program is, 12-step based, and not offering medical care, and not allowing
Shoshana Walter: medications of any kind, even psychiatric medications, they’re exempt from licensure. And then you have sober living homes that also are not typically regulated. And in California, for example, outpatient programs are not required to be licensed or certified.
Shoshana Walter: So, there are a lot of gaps in oversight in this system.
Shoshana Walter: And, and so I found that there were often, there was often exploitation happening in these programs that lacked any kind of oversight. So, for example, April, one of the people that I, that I followed in my book.
Shoshana Walter: You know, when she was struggling with addiction, she couldn’t find treatment, her children were taken away from her.
Shoshana Walter: She ended up, going to this 30-day program. Immediately afterwards, she relapsed, and she had nowhere to go, and so she ended up at this, recovery home.
Shoshana Walter: That required her to… to pray.
Shoshana Walter: That was essentially what she was allowed to do in this program. And, she was allowed to take her detox medications, but one day, when they discovered her taking them a little bit early, they punished her by forcing her to sit in a corner on her knees and pray for 4 hours straight.
Shoshana Walter: And so, as you can imagine, that led April to want to leave, and she did. She fled the program. She ended up homeless in Kensington, in Philadelphia, where she really devol- got worse in her addiction.
Shoshana Walter: She, she’s started relying on sex work to support herself.
Shoshana Walter: And she was desperate to stop, you know? She desperately wanted to be reunited with her kids, and she could not find any help. The only help that she could find, in her view, was to get herself arrested.
Shoshana Walter: So that’s what she did in order to stop her cycle of addiction. She got herself arrested, she entered jail.
Shoshana Walter: And then that was the start of her recovery process, which took a very long time, because April grew up in poverty and really lacked that recovery capital that we were talking about earlier.
Shoshana Walter: And then there’s another person that I follow in my book named Wendy McIntyre. She is… she became kind of an activist, obsessively rooting out corruption in the for-profit treatment industry.
Shoshana Walter: after she lost her son to overdose when he was in a sober living home. And, Wendy, you know, when I met Wendy.
Shoshana Walter: I learned that she basically investigates rehabs in her spare time, and she is so, persistent and aggressive in this pursuit. The first time I met her, I…
Shoshana Walter: entered her house, and the floor was basically carpeted in boxes of her investigations. I mean, she is, relentless. And so one of the programs that Wendy investigated was located in the San Bernardino Mountains, not far from her own home.
Shoshana Walter: And, it was one of these short-term residential programs. And what Wendy discovered is that this program was…
Shoshana Walter: Over-medicating people, often to the point of impairment, basically giving everyone the same
Shoshana Walter: a mixture of detox medications, even when it wasn’t appropriate for them. You know, for example, giving someone Suboxone who had a meth addiction. You know, there was no reason for them to be on that medication. And in multiple instances, people died after receiving these cocktail of meds.
Shoshana Walter: That were not appropriate for them, and that the record showed had not actually been prescribed to them by a doctor. And, Wendy…
Shoshana Walter: tried so hard to get this facility shut down. I mean, she filed hundreds of complaints.
Shoshana Walter: Called law enforcement and regulators constantly. The rehab filed a restraining order against her, and filed a libel lawsuit against her to get her to stop what she was doing, and she didn’t.
Shoshana Walter: And nonetheless, people continue to die, and…
Shoshana Walter: No legal authorities ever made a substantial effort to shut this facility down. The only reason it eventually shut down is because the owner went into debt after a series of wrongful death lawsuits.
Shoshana Walter: And he was making a lot of money through this program for many years. I mean, he got into it because he had been in construction, he had a bunch of empty homes that were not being put to use, and despite having no training or background with addiction.
Shoshana Walter: He decided to start this treatment facility because it was a moneymaker.
Shoshana Walter: And it… it led to people dying due to the inadequate care.
Jessica Dueñas: Oh my goodness, I mean, it’s… it’s terrifying, and again, I hate to say that it’s not shocking that it was very… like, that she wasn’t able to get it shut down, that it took the owner self-shutting down because of debt. I mean, I think a big part of it, Shoshana, is that
Jessica Dueñas: though there’s been lots of strides in how addiction is viewed, and, you know, I’ve seen some of your interviews in other spaces where you’ve said that, you know, like, in the 80s.
Jessica Dueñas: you know, drug addiction was certainly criminalized, right? When you had predominantly Black and brown bodies that were struggling with the addiction, and then with the transition to opiate addiction, you know, now it’s like, oh no, this is a disease, we need to, like, treat it, we need to care for these folks, right?
Jessica Dueñas: But I still think at the end of the day, there’s a huge stigma, and I think that, you know, there’s still this, like, lesser-than view of the person who is struggling with an addiction, especially if it’s anything that is, like, taken off of the street, right? Because I still think, like, sometimes people who struggle with alcohol abuse, you know, there’s…
Jessica Dueñas: it’s just, people are treated so differently, and I feel like sometimes people really don’t care, and they don’t see the human who’s struggling
Jessica Dueñas: behind the addiction, and so, well, if… if there’s some casualties, I can see that attitude being of, like, oh, well, you know, we’ve got other things to worry about. Right. So that… that is incredibly heartbreaking.
Jessica Dueñas: So, as you’ve been, like, looking through these, doing your research, and investigating.
Jessica Dueñas: Have you found any kind of programs that you feel are somewhat effective? Like, let’s say if you had a loved one, or a friend with a loved one struggling, and they needed help, what would you suggest, considering how broken so many of these spaces are?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of shadowing of providers when I was working on my book,
Shoshana Walter: to really get a sense for what addiction treatment looks like, especially when it’s really helping people. And so one of the programs that I, that I shadowed for several months
Shoshana Walter: It’s called the Bridge Clinic. It’s at, it’s at a hospital here in Oakland, California, where I’m based.
Shoshana Walter: And, it predominantly focuses on treating patients who are more marginalized and often unhoused. And, and I saw, and it’s a low-barrier clinic, meaning,
Shoshana Walter: anyone can come and get treatment. There’s no… there’s no wait, you don’t even have to set up an appointment, you can just show up.
Shoshana Walter: And… and if you’re still using, or you relapse during the course of your time in the clinic.
Shoshana Walter: you can still remain a patient. I mean, that’s a very common problem in treatment, too, is someone relapses while in treatment, they’re kicked out.
Shoshana Walter: So in this clinic, people are allowed to remain in care. And so they’re… and so they can show up at the clinic anytime for an appointment. They don’t need to make an appointment, they can just
Shoshana Walter: come and see a doctor, and they get medical care, they get addiction treatment medications, and they also get counseling. There’s a counselor there, a social worker there, who helps people work through some of these other issues that are going on in their lives.
Shoshana Walter: And I just saw… In real time, how beneficial that was.
Shoshana Walter: To some of these patients. I mean, I remember one patient in particular who was in his 60s, he’d been struggling with addiction for decades, he’d been homeless for a very long time, and he decided to…
Shoshana Walter: Start his recovery process when he realized that he had turned the same age that his own dad had been when he died from his addiction.
Shoshana Walter: And so, he started going to this clinic, and he didn’t even have to go in person, but he wanted to. And it’s kind of a haul to get to this place, and he would just walk there.
Shoshana Walter: to go to the clinic. He would pick flowers from people’s front yards along the way, and then by the time he got to the clinic, he would have, like, a bouquet of flowers that he would present to the receptionist.
Shoshana Walter: And, and even though he still struggled intermittently with using, I could see how much better it was for him to be on this medication, have access to these resources.
Shoshana Walter: And because that prevented him from… from dying from his addiction. It kept him in better health, and it allowed him to make ongoing improvements and changes in his life. And it was a lifeline to…
Shoshana Walter: a phone that he could use to call people he needed to, to medical care to address the other physical ailments that were going on in his body. The one thing that I will say about this program is, even though it was so beneficial to the patients from what I could see.
Shoshana Walter: There was still a limitation to what healthcare providers could provide, you know? There’s a housing, shortage in the Bay Area, and so the social worker, you know.
Shoshana Walter: was unable to find, housing for him. So, even though he was attending this program in the long term, he was still unhoused, and that had an effect on his stability and had an impact on his addiction. And so, I think when I…
Shoshana Walter: when I think about our larger treatment system.
Shoshana Walter: I think a lot about the fact that there are limitations to our healthcare system in being able to provide the resources that people need in order to
Shoshana Walter: actually sustain their recovery. And so that’s a broader problem, I think, for our society to really address and solve. It’s not something that
Shoshana Walter: It’s gonna be solved with just our healthcare system alone.
Jessica Dueñas: Sure, I mean, you know, I think of, like, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right? And it’s just, like, just the basic safety, housing, you know.
Shoshana Walter: Yes, the basics.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, like, if we don’t have those basics, it’s going to be really hard to stay sober, to stay clean.
Shoshana Walter: Exactly.
Shoshana Walter: Exactly, Jessica.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, so…
Jessica Dueñas: So, I mean, this is fascinating. This is a fascinating and heartbreaking conversation, and again, for anyone listening.
Jessica Dueñas: I just hope that it helps us just make better decisions in terms of the care that we are seeking. So, what might be some red flags that families might need to look for if they’re looking to either… if someone’s looking to place themselves in a facility, or a loved one that needs to go into a facility, what are some things that you would recommend people pay attention to before, you know, as they’re looking
Jessica Dueñas: For maybe an intake interview, etc.
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, I would want to know what are the qualifications of the people who work at that program? You know, if… is the program…
Shoshana Walter: providing not just, care for addiction via, you know, groups, but are they also providing access to medical care, to addiction treatment medications, and to mental health care, to psychiatric care? You know, if someone needs medication, for example, for a mental health condition.
Shoshana Walter: Will they be able to also address that in the program?
Shoshana Walter: I would ask about what,
Shoshana Walter: what are the common features of the program on a daily basis. I think one big red flag for me with any program would be how often are they drug testing participants? I think drug testing can be a very valuable tool.
Shoshana Walter: But if the program is drug testing people every day or every other day, that’s not necessary, and it’s excessive, and it may be a sign that that program
Shoshana Walter: is, is providing unnecessary services in order to bill insurance companies for more money. I’d also ask, you know, what does the program’s approach to aftercare look like?
Shoshana Walter: How do they involve the family?
Shoshana Walter: And how do they work with the patient to determine what the next step should be following treatment? How do they help guide that patient through the process of identifying
Shoshana Walter: The supports that they need following treatment, and what kind of resources they might need to access in order to support themselves following treatment.
Shoshana Walter: There was one program, this is the one that I was telling you about earlier, that had been over-medicating patients.
Shoshana Walter: you know, I spoke with this treatment facility owner, and he… he actually was frustrated by the insurance companies covering such short bursts of treatment, because he… even he acknowledged that…
Shoshana Walter: it can be, counterproductive. He referred to it as a cycler, like, people go into the program, they come out, they relapse, and then they come back in. And he was criticizing this, but at the same time, he is among many other treatment programs that have now made this kind of a part of their business model, where, like, the relapse is a part
Shoshana Walter: of… Of ensuring a…
Shoshana Walter: steady customer base, for lack of a better term. And so he employed people in his quote-unquote aftercare program.
Shoshana Walter: who would call former patients, find out if they relapsed, and then re-enroll them if they did. And so I think if that is what a rehab is considering their aftercare program.
Shoshana Walter: that’s likely going to be insufficient for patients, and so I would, if I were looking for a treatment program, I would try to determine how robust that… that aftercare program is, actually. You know, what are they actually doing for patients once they leave?
Jessica Dueñas: And, you know, the relapse thing, it’s fascinating to hear you say that, that they call and are just like, hey, do you want to come back? Because at the end of the day, when someone is discharged, they do…
Jessica Dueñas: a big part of being in recovery is learning how to live in the world, right? And, you know, if a person… obviously with opiates, right, the problem with the relapse there is that it can be deadly. With alcohol, not always, unless, you know, someone
Jessica Dueñas: goes overboard or gets into a car, hurts themself, etc. But there are times when the person uses a substance again, whatever it is. It’s also a learning opportunity, where we can talk about, well, what set you off, what triggered you?
Jessica Dueñas: how can you adjust your environment? Like, how can you… you know, there’s, like, this whole, like, relapse prevention education that can happen that does not necessarily need to happen behind the walls of a treatment facility where you’re charging someone thousands of dollars a day, right? But if they look at that moment, like, oh, you used again, time to go back in, and, like, let’s start this all over again, you really are perpetuating a cycle where someone’s not learning and not growing.
Jessica Dueñas: In their journey, honestly.
Shoshana Walter: Totally, Jessica, I think that’s such a good point. Like, that’s information that is really valuable to have once you’re out in the world, and I think that is the time to really
Shoshana Walter: to really focus on that challenge. And it’s where… it’s the time period in which people need the most support. Not when they’re in the confines of this program, but when they’re out of the program and surrounded by all the triggers that accompany, you know.
Shoshana Walter: The recovery process.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. So, Shoshana, with your text, when people pick it up, whether it’s someone who is just a casual reader, someone in recovery, or maybe a practitioner, or even a policymaker.
Jessica Dueñas: What do you hope people will maybe do differently after they engage with your book? It sounds like it’s full of individual people’s stories, as well as patterns that you’ve noticed that are occurring on a systemic level. What do you hope people do differently with that information?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, well…
Shoshana Walter: it really depends on who’s reading it. You know, I… for the book, which is called Rehab and American Scandal, I followed four different people very closely through different facets of our treatment system.
Shoshana Walter: And, I did that because I feel like, in order to really understand the system and the problems that people, confront.
Shoshana Walter: you really have to view it through the eyes of someone who’s experienced it. I think stories are really powerful. So I hope that people, that policymakers and lawmakers who might read it
Shoshana Walter: Read the book and understand for the first time, perhaps, that this system that our country has set up to, help stop this drug crisis is really not working the way it was intended to work.
Shoshana Walter: And there need to be some significant changes in order for it to actually help more people. I hope that, people struggling with addiction and their family members read it and, and, maybe feel validated or seen.
Shoshana Walter: because… and I’ve heard from so many families since the book came out who’ve… who do feel like it really, accurately reflects their own experiences, and so often those experiences are totally ignored by the authorities. And so, I hope that people read this and feel…
Shoshana Walter: Heard and seen, and perhaps empowered to speak up about their own experiences.
Shoshana Walter: And I also… this was not necessarily my initial thinking behind
Shoshana Walter: putting out these books, but since the book came out, I’ve also heard from a lot of treatment practitioners. I think there are a lot of people working in the treatment industry who want to see the system improve.
Shoshana Walter: And so there’s been a lot of really hopeful, what I view as hopeful conversation going on around the book, and around changes that, this industry can make to really help people. And so, I hope that that is another piece of impact that occurs, is…
Shoshana Walter: Just, treatment facilities, looking for ways to improve.
Shoshana Walter: The programs that they have, and also perhaps putting a little more pressure on insurance companies to change how treatment is incentivized.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. When you speak about the insurance companies, I also always remember, having to turn in attendance sheets in order… there was one program that I was in that I had to turn in attendance sheets for attending 12-step program meetings in person, and that was the only way that, like, insurance was going to continue my… this was an outpatient program that I was approved for. But if I didn’t go, like, let’s say if I would have been like.
Shoshana Walter: to explore another community, that was not going to be an option, and so I would have been so limited in what I could have done at that time. Wow.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Shoshana Walter: That’s… yeah, that’s it in a nutshell, right, Jessica? Like, maybe that wasn’t the right community for you, and it sounds like that’s not where you found the most support, right? And so…
Shoshana Walter: that really limited your options. I mean, I’m sure it would have been helpful to maybe try out a different group at that time.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Oh, well, I mean, Shoshana, I want to thank you so much for joining me today, and again, just so much for this powerful work that you’re doing. Again, I… having witnessed it myself, there are definitely…
Jessica Dueñas: many, many areas of growth in the treatment system that exists today, and I’m just so grateful that people like you are shining the light on this, for sure. Now, can you tell us more about how people can find you, how people can find your book, when it is out, if it’s not out already, all those great details?
Shoshana Walter: Yeah, yes. I have a website, ShoshanaWalter.com, where you can find all…
Shoshana Walter: different ways to contact me, but I’m also on Instagram at Walt Show, S-H-O, and LinkedIn, under my name, Shoshana Walter, and Facebook.
Shoshana Walter: And yes, the book is out now, it’s called Rehab, an American Scandal. You can find it wherever you buy your books, AmazonBookshop.org, or your local bookseller. And thank you so much for having me, Jessica. I really appreciate it. It’s such a pleasure.
Jessica Dueñas: Yes, thank you, thank you so much.
I reflect on a passage from The Pivot Year by Brianna Wiest and what it means to truly be where your feet are. I share how recovery has taught me to embrace stillness, simplicity, and the quiet moments that used to feel empty. Life doesn’t have to be loud or flashy to be full, and sometimes, the real transformation happens in the most unglamorous routines. If you’ve ever wondered whether your peaceful, sober life is “enough,” this one’s for you.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back. Before I get started, I just wanted to give you a heads-up that episodes may become shorter or a little bit less frequent in the coming two months, only because I’m stepping into a very busy season for my 9 to 5, which impacts just how my energy is outside of work. So just putting that out there for you all—I don’t hold myself to a specific schedule, so I will post episodes when I can, and when I can’t, I just won’t. Thanks for listening today. I appreciate you all for showing up. I can’t believe I’ve had this podcast now for about two years. Time flies.
Anyway, what I wanted to do for today’s episode was actually start with a reading from The Pivot Year by Brianna Wiest.
I’ll be honest—I did not write down which Pivot Year reading this was. It was written down in one of my journals, and whatever version of myself felt like writing it down that day accidentally did not write the entry number down. My bad. But I do really love the reading, and I just wanted to speak briefly on it for today’s episode.
Brianna wrote:
“You may believe that living life to the fullest is seeing every country in the world, and quitting your job on a whim and falling recklessly in love. But it’s really just knowing how to be where your feet are. It’s learning how to take care of yourself, how to make a home within your own skin. It’s learning to build a simple life you are proud of. A life most fully lived is not always composed of the things that rock you awake, but those things that slowly assure you it’s okay to slow down. That you don’t always have to prove yourself. That you don’t need to fight forever or constantly want more. That it’s okay for things to be just as they are. Little by little, you’ll begin to see that life can only grow outward in proportion to how stable it is inward. That if the joy is not in the little things first, the big things won’t truly find us.”
Oof. I just love that whole piece.
But I especially love that line about making a home within your own skin, right? I think that just speaks directly to the work we do here in recovery. I think about the fact that when I was in active addiction, I was always chasing something. If I wasn’t chasing a drink, I was chasing validation, love, the next achievement. There was always forward movement in terms of going after the next fix.
And so, when I first got sober, I actually thought recovery would also kind of follow that same model—that it would have all sorts of external transformations. You know, landing a dream job, perfect relationship—life would be beautiful and perfect on the outside. But what no one really talks about early on is that real change often looks a little bit boring.
For me, especially early on when I used to take psych meds to help with my journey, it meant waking up early to take those meds—not because I felt like it, but because they helped regulate my mood. It meant opening the mail I had been avoiding because I realized, “Dang, I’ve got to step up and actually own my responsibilities,” which meant paying some bills I’d been ignoring.
Right now, I’m recording this on my couch on a Friday evening while my daughter’s napping. There’s nothing really glamorous about what I’m doing right now, but this is how I’m connecting. This is how I’m moving forward in my day-to-day life.
This isn’t necessarily Instagrammable stuff. It definitely doesn’t look like “living to the fullest” on social media. But what it does look like is peace. This is stability for me. And honestly, if I go back to my life years ago, this is radically different than what my life used to be like.
So here are a couple of scenarios that might resonate for some of you listening. I want you to think about how our life doesn’t have to be loud to feel full.
For example, maybe you are already a year or two sober, and you’re looking around and starting to wonder, “Is this it?” Maybe the chaos has gotten quiet, and now the thrills in your life involve laundry, therapy appointments, sitting with your thoughts, reflecting, and journaling.
It might sound incredibly unexciting, but honestly, that’s where a lot of the real work begins—when you’re able to sit with your feelings, not run away from them, and get deeper with everything you’re doing.
Maybe you recently saw a friend post about a spontaneous trip or quitting their job to follow their dreams. And you look at what you’re doing and start to think maybe you’re behind. But what if you’re just building something a little bit slower? What if you’re building something that’s more solid? Maybe you don’t need to blow up your life to feel alive anymore.
Maybe you don’t have to engage in extreme behaviors to feel alive and fulfilled—and that’s okay.
Or maybe you’re seeing people surrounding themselves with big groups of others, celebrating and partying. And you’re realizing that the idea of being in big groups doesn’t appeal to you, and you’re honestly just enjoying your own company.
Maybe it’s not that you’ve given up on connecting with other people, but that you’ve finally made peace with who you are—and that’s huge. I want you to recognize that and own that, because for years, for some of us, being alone was a massive trigger. For many of us, being alone was intolerable.
So I just want to offer that gentle reminder: as we sit through life, and it’s not so thrilling or glamorous—that’s okay. Your life doesn’t have to be loud to be full. It doesn’t have to be particularly exciting on social media for it to be full. Life can be slow. Life can be quiet. Life can be rooted.
And that’s where growth can happen the most.
Maybe you’re walking or just sitting while listening to this podcast episode. Here are a couple of questions to close out with—food for thought, as I like to say:
What does it mean for you to be where your feet are? How do you ground yourself when you’re feeling pulled in a lot of different directions?
Are you still chasing old definitions of what successful or exciting looks like? What would it look like for you to embrace something slower, or more stable?
What are some small things that can bring you peace today that might be more quiet? What have you started noticing or appreciating that maybe you overlooked before you got sober?
Again, you don’t have to prove anything to be worthy of rest or peace or joy. And you don’t have to keep fighting against yourself forever.
It’s okay to be still. You’re allowed to be enough exactly where your feet are today.
Thanks so much for spending some time with me. I appreciate you all. Feel free to share this episode with someone else in recovery—or even someone who’s just learning to slow down and be more present.
So, what is ego, anyway? In this episode, I talk about how ego shows up in everyday life, especially in recovery, and how choosing presence over control can bring more peace and connection. I share personal insights, a favorite quote, and a few reflection questions to help you soften and stay curious.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back to Bottomless is Sober. And today I want to talk about something that’s been sitting with me lately. And honestly, it’s a lesson that shows up all over the place, and hopefully you’ll find it helpful, too. So it started with a quote that I actually stumbled on while I was playing around on Substack.
I’ve got a new page on there—definitely follow me or subscribe to my podcast and my Substack, which is also called Bottomless is Sober. I’ll put the link in the show notes for today. But I have really been enjoying using Substack. It’s a great space for writing, storytelling, and reflection.
So, anyway, here is the quote, and it’s a Yung Pueblo quote, and he wrote: “Ego loves to think that it has a good grasp on everything. But compassion understands that there are more views than one. Taking in more perspectives than just your own, and seeing things from multiple angles is not only a trait of good leadership, but it is a key aspect of wisdom.”
I love that, right? And this quote—it just gave me pause because it speaks directly to something that I’ve been wrestling with, and it is that desire to control things, especially the desire to be right.
I swear I have like this illusion that, years into recovery, still lives with me that says, “If I just manage everything well enough, I’m going to feel safe.” But what I have to come back to is the truth that peace is not coming from controlling everything. It’s really going to come from staying open—especially when we deal with other human beings—staying open to their perspective and their side of things.
Now, before we go further, I do want to take a moment to unpack what I mean by ego, because it’s one of those words that can mean lots of different things depending on where you hear it in the first place. And if you are newer to recovery, if you are newer to personal development, this might be helpful for you.
Some people do associate ego with arrogance, right? Like someone is full of themselves, or someone who thinks they’re better than everyone else. But when we’re talking about personal growth and recovery work, it’s much deeper than that. Like, yes, that’s true, but there’s more to it. So you know I had to—I wanted to get formal definitions, right? So I went to the Cleveland Clinic.
According to them, ego is the part of your personality that helps you stay grounded. It helps you make wise choices. It helps you manage emotions. And it’s basically a middle ground between your impulses and what your moral compass is. Essentially, your ego is going to help you regulate your emotions, handle your relationships, make decisions, and just adapt to anything that life is throwing at you.
When your ego is balanced, it’s going to support you in staying present and rational. But when your ego is out of balance—maybe because you’re dealing with stress or unhealed trauma or old wounds—then it can cause us to deal with overreactions, getting defensive, or falling into old control patterns (which is kind of like where I live right now). But there’s another side to ego, too.
Eckhart Tolle, the spiritual teacher and author of The Power of Now, discusses ego not as our rational mind, but as our false sense of self. It’s an identity that we build through our thoughts, the roles we’ve played, and the past stories. One of his quotes is: “The ego is the unobserved mind that runs your life when you are not present. It is the voice in your head that pretends to be you.”
So in recovery work—or if I work with a client one-on-one—and they tell me a thought they have and they’re so convinced it’s true, and I follow up with, “What evidence do you have for that?”—that’s usually where we’re kind of living in this ego space. We’re debunking the myths and beliefs we really think are true, and that we think are a part of us, and it turns out—whoops—they’re not.
So when we confuse who we are with what we think… or with what we’ve been through… or how we want others to see us—that is ego, too. And Eckhart Tolle’s perspective reminds us that ego is not just about arrogance, but about disconnection. It disconnects us from presence, from the truth, from each other. So just think: totally disconnected.
But now we’re in recovery, right? So we get the opportunity to learn to reconnect—with everything. With ourselves, with our bodies, even with the present moment. A big part of being connected with our bodies and the now is paying attention to when ego is stepping up, getting in control, getting in that driver’s seat.
For some of us, it might be through overthinking. Others: control, fear, falling into old survival strategies. But if we can choose to soften, stay curious, and let presence lead, that can really help us step into a little more peace in our day-to-day lives.
Again, for me, I am definitely still learning how to recognize when ego is stepping in. Recently, my partner and I were navigating a big decision, and it really brought this to the surface for me, right? Because of course in my head, I have a clear picture of what I think the “right” outcome is. And of course, it’s centered around my perspective.
Then I had to stop and ask myself, “What else could be true? What am I not seeing?” And again, I’m not operating by myself anymore. So like, what does we look like in this situation—not just me?
These are a lot of questions we ask in The Luckiest Club, the sobriety community I’m part of. But really, these questions are anchors for me in sobriety, especially being in a relationship. Because if I want to not just coexist, but actually grow with another human being, I’ve got to soften up.
I have to let go of the need to be the one who’s always right. And I’m telling you, that is very hard. Very humbling. But it’s also the gateway to connection and understanding, emotional maturity, and emotional sobriety—which is one of those terms that can be annoying to hear, but it’s real.
So, anyway, let’s turn it over to you all. Here are a couple of everyday moments where ego might sneak in, and I’m curious if you recognize yourself in any of these:
Relationship decision: You and your partner are deciding where to live. You’ve already mapped it out in your head. Then they bring up something unexpected. Your first response might be to shut it down, because ego says, “If I let go of my plan, I’m giving up my vision of safety.” But presence might ask: Can I trust that shared decisions can also lead to shared joy?
In early recovery, many of us crave control as a substitute for security. But true partnership invites us to build something we couldn’t have imagined alone.
Family dynamics: A parent criticizes your career, parenting, or sobriety journey. It hits a nerve. Ego says: They never understand me. I have to prove myself. But presence might ask: What if I release the need for their approval and stay rooted in my truth?
Our healing might trigger someone else’s discomfort, but we don’t need to carry their fear as our own.
Workplace friction: You’re left out of a meeting or event. Ego says: They don’t value me. I need to prove myself. Presence might say: Can I speak up for myself from a place of worth—not woundedness?
In sobriety, our self-worth becomes internal. We can advocate for ourselves with clarity, not desperation.
Friendships in transition: You’re changing in sobriety, setting boundaries, and a friend pulls away. Ego says: I must’ve done something wrong. But presence might say: What if they are grieving who I used to be?
Not everyone will come with you. People grow apart—and that’s okay. The most loving thing might be to honor the shift.
A tough day/slip/relapse: You snap, or regret something. Shame floods in. Ego says: See? You haven’t changed. You’re still broken. But presence says: This is just a moment—not a sentence. You can return to yourself.
Recovery is not perfection. It is a daily return to compassion.
So these examples are all different moments where, instead of trying to control a situation, we get to practice choosing connection and compassion—whether it’s toward others or ourselves.
Here are a few reflection questions to take with you:
Where is ego showing up as certainty, and how can I replace it with curiosity?
What assumptions might I be making without realizing it?
How can I practice compassion by considering another person’s perspective?
What else might be true?
That last question stings—but honestly, it’s one of the most important questions I ask myself.
So with all that said, if you are in a season of navigating any kind of relationship dynamic—romantic, family, work, or even the one with yourself—I hope this episode offered something useful. Remember: Your ego’s job is to protect you—even when you don’t need the protection anymore. When you’ve done work on yourself, you don’t have to live in protection mode. You get to live in connection mode.
Thanks so much for being here. If this episode resonated, send it to a friend, leave a review, or come find me on Substack. Or come write with me—my writing class starts next week. I’d love to connect with you further. Until next time, I’ll catch you all. Have a good one.
I sit down with Robert Marino, founder of Rolling Hills Recovery Center and Novara Recovery Center, to talk about what really happens inside a treatment facility. We explore how to know when it’s time to seek help, what to expect from a 30-day program, and why not all treatment centers are created equal. Robert also opens up about his own journey from addiction to long-term recovery and I speak about my own experience, having been to treatment seven or eight times. If you’ve ever wondered whether you or a loved one might be “bad enough” to need help, or felt shame about how many times you’ve tried, this conversation is for you.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey, everyone, welcome back. So for today’s episode, I have a special guest. I’ve been very lucky with several guests lately. Today I have Robert Marino, who is the founder of Rolling Hills Recovery Center and Novara Recovery center up in the northeast.
Jessica Dueñas: And if you’ve ever wondered what on earth happens behind the doors of a treatment facility when someone should go, what to expect and how to choose the right one. My conversation with Robert today is for you. We’re also going to dive a little bit into Robert’s personal why, for doing this work and what he’s learned from working alongside people in recovery. So Robert! Welcome thanks for coming.
Robert Marino: Hey? Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. It’s an honor to be here and always get in front of the recovery community and talk about the truths, the myths, and you know the expectations and the personal journeys, because
Robert Marino: without that identification, that’s I probably never would have got to where I am today in my recovery, because I had to see people that came before me that had these same sufferings, that I did, that I could sit back and say, Wow! That sounds like me a little bit right there. And it was. It was enticing to me to be able to get to the goal of where they are right. You know, when I, when I was out there right a little bit about what it was like
Robert Marino: in the most
Robert Marino: explicit way. Horrid! Right? It was absolutely terrible. I got to the point of homelessness. Loss of family. You know, living outside taking bird baths in a dunkin donuts bathroom, and just I could not get out of my addiction. You know I was dual dual, addicted Cross addicted. You know I drank every single day. I was also addicted to heroin.
Robert Marino: You know it just it brought me to my knees, and it brought me to a spot where I didn’t know what to do right, because I was so maladjusted to living a certain lifestyle that that was the only normal lifestyle to me, if that makes any sense so, and what I mean by that is, you know, I would hear other people talk, and they would say, Wow, man, you’ve been in jail and like what you haven’t
Robert Marino: it didn’t. It didn’t connect with me that this was not normal behavior. And I love telling this story because this is just the the mind of an alcoholic drug addict. Right? So my wife and I, we’ve we’ve been together for a very long time now, and I remember I was maybe about 2 years sober, and we went on a vacation down to Myrtle Beach.
Robert Marino: and she is a normal person, right? She drinks like a regular person, not alcoholic behavior, and I remember she had a bottle of wine, and she poured herself a glass, and I woke up the next morning, and the glass was halfway full, and it just was a it blew my mind.
Robert Marino: and and where my mind goes was, how did you not drink that whole glass of wine, and then go for the bottle, and then have to go back to the liquor store and continue till you were blacked out drunk. These are just some things that escaped me. And, you know, coming into treatment, I actually was in an indigent, indigent treatment facility in Morristown, New Jersey, called the Market Street Mission. It’s a faith-based program, because I had nothing. You know I had my whole life in 3 black garbage bags.
Robert Marino: and you know they brought me in free of cost. No insurance, none of that. And I slept on a on a chapel floor, on a jail mattress until I got enrolled into the actual program.
Robert Marino: And then from there I started getting connected to the resources. And if it wasn’t for that moment for actually enrolling in that program and taking that hard step because it was scary. I knew that I was about to commit to removing
Robert Marino: the only thing that gave me some sense of ease and comfort, because that was my problem. My whole life was, I always felt out of place in my own skin. You know I’ve been diagnosed with Adhd from when I was a kid. So I’ve always had a problem sitting still, and that comfortability. And you know the opioids gave me that relaxation that I was looking for right.
Robert Marino: and it kind of it mellowed me out a little bit, but as soon as I wasn’t high it was still back to the same, you know, tortoise in a hare. I was all over the place, you know. I could never stay the course steady, so you know that was the opportunity that I needed in my life at that. At that point.
Jessica Dueñas: Gotcha. And so with that, thank you for sharing so much about your story. Now with you. Having gone to a treatment facility yourself, what made you decide to open your own.
Robert Marino: So I was actually, where was I at? In the very beginning I was
Robert Marino: doing mortgages right. I became a loan officer, and I worked at a restaurant and all these different things.
Robert Marino: and you know I’m in long-term recovery. I’ve been sober a long time now, and I remember my business partner for Rolling Hills Recovery Center in New Jersey. We
Robert Marino: we lost contact. We were childhood friends, right, and I was jogging down the street one day in Morristown, and here he is. He pulls up next to me, said, Hey, Rob, have you been? I haven’t seen you in forever, and I said, You know we started chatting, and he was like, What are you up to these days? What are you doing for work? And I said, Well, you know I’m actually doing. I’m a loan officer for a mortgage company getting mortgages for people to buy their houses.
Robert Marino: and he said, Hey, this is where what I’ve been doing, and he knew that I was in sobriety, and he asked me, and he said, Would that ever be something that you’d be interested in doing? And I said, Yeah, I mean, I’m in the position right now, because you know how, when you 1st get sober, you just want to help the world right? You just want to say you just think you could save everybody by spreading the message of sobriety, and I was like, no, I don’t think that’s for me. And then, you know, I don’t know. A few weeks or a month goes by, and I was thinking about it, and I gave him a call, and
Robert Marino: he got me my 1st job at a treatment center doing business development, for, you know, like going and spreading the message about the treatment facility to get clients to come into the program.
Robert Marino: and then it start. It started from there and then, you know, as years went by, him and I started talking, and we were like, you know, we see all these treatment facilities, and you know not. All treatment facilities are the same. Caliber. Right are created equally. Some are not
Robert Marino: adhering to the proper principles, while others flourish, and they do fantastic work. And you know I saw things in different treatment facilities that I did not like right. I didn’t like how it started to become a money driven operation where it was just all about getting people into treatment that had to have a good paying insurance policy, right? And and these are some of the things that had
Robert Marino: motivated me to be able to. You know one. People always tell me, Rob. What you do is God’s work, and you know I don’t. Bs them right. I’m not going to sit there and say, yes, this is exactly. You know, I’m doing this to save the world.
Robert Marino: We do this to support our families, and at the same time we get to help people that we encounter right? And that’s just the reality behind it. But what we do is make sure that we provide the best kind of clinical services possible, and that’s something that you know we can get into if you want to take it there. And in a few moments to explain the program at Rolling Hills.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, for sure. So first, st before we get into kind of like the programs that you all offer, I think one of the big questions that somebody listening might have for themselves is, if if you are struggling with addiction right? At what point is it that you should go into a treatment facility. And at what point are you okay to kind of do this at home? Because I know for myself. I
Jessica Dueñas: went to treatment several times, and I know that I felt like I was at a place of feeling complete lack of control. But I’m curious what you all like in your facilities. How you determine. Yes, like at an intake interview. Yes, you should stay with us, or like no, we think that you’re okay to like, go home, go to meetings, etc.
Robert Marino: Yeah. So you know one of the 1st indicators. So let’s let’s start at the beginning. Where is treatment necessary? Right? Do I even need to go into a detox, a residential, an outpatient setting.
Robert Marino: If.
Robert Marino: in my experience, if life is becoming unmanageable to the point where you cannot control your consumption of either a narcotic or alcohol. Then it’s probably time to seek out. You know, if you’re suffering family relationships, you’re missing work, you’re getting fired from jobs as a result of
Robert Marino: your usage, then. Yes, it’s probably time to seek help now, what we do is we do an assessment with individuals before they even come into our program. And then we’re going to go over prior drinking history or usage history, any kind of underlying Co occurring disorders that may be prevalent. So depression, stress and anxiety, disorder, bipolar disorder. Because we also do.
Robert Marino: you know, med management and prescribing at our facility. So we have advanced nurse practitioners which are psychiatric nurse practitioners to be able to help people get on medication, get their levels balanced, and then stay on track with that. With those meds.
Robert Marino: Now we, once the assessment is done, then we’ll make our determination. Does this. Does this person need detox, and then we’ll start them off at that detox level of care if they are reporting, only drinking a couple times a week, or you know they have work that they still need to engage with families that they need to engage with. So there’s a bunch of things that kind of collectively come together to establish what level of care is necessary for an individual.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, no. And I think that that’s important. I love that you all take the time to do an assessment, and that you do offer levels of care, because I know there were times that I did an intensive outpatient program, and I completely bombed that. So I had to go inpatient. And you know the reason I did intensive outpatient was because I was trying to keep my work schedule going and trying to get sober, and the the truth was, I was in too deep. And so, you know, the
Jessica Dueñas: person running the outpatient program was like, Hey, we really think you need to kind of.
Jessica Dueñas: you know. Take some time off work and go in so that you can just make this like your number one priority. The other thing I wanted to mention. I also think it’s great that you all offer detox treatment.
Robert Marino: I just wanna be make that clear. So we’re not the actual medical portion of it. We do your traditional 30 day programming. So what we do with the detox is, we have our partners that we utilize, that we trust and been using for years. We align them with the detox, and then once they’re completed, then we bring them in on a bed to bed training.
Jessica Dueñas: Perfect. Okay, so.
Robert Marino: I don’t want to mislead anybody.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah, no. I’m so glad you clarified that for the listeners, because for anyone listening, I will share from my personal experience as not, and not as medical advice. You all because I’m not a doctor. But what I do know is that detoxing specifically from alcohol and benzodiazepines can be lethal. And so it is so important that if you are struggling with alcohol or benzos that you do follow up with medical care because you don’t want to end up having seizures.
Jessica Dueñas: or you know you’re going into cardiac arrest or any of the other. Many things that can happen, I know, detoxing from the other substances can be incredibly incredibly painful, and basically torture from having been in detox with people coming off of opiates and everything else. But please understand, it’s always good to get assessed and get medical advice from a licensed medical doctor before you decide
Jessica Dueñas: to quit something cold. Turkey, whatever you’re using at the end of the day. But I’m glad that you all kind of work with a Detox center. And then you take people in for the 30 day programs.
Robert Marino: Correct, and you know, and just to piggyback off what you were saying there a little bit. So with that, you’re right. Alcohol and disclaimer as well. I’m not a doctor either, but you know alcohol and benzodiazepines. Yes, that can kill you. It’s lethal right. And but here’s a lot of things that. Why, that assessment is so necessary, too, because people don’t pay attention or undermine this fact right here is that a lot of people are using benzodiazepines to taper off alcohol, which is perfectly okay. Right
Robert Marino: now, a lot of people are also addicted to benzodiazepines that drink alcohol. And now and why? Let’s say right? Because benzodiazepines are also a depressant which produce similar effects as alcohol.
Robert Marino: So what we do is when people come into our program after that detox process. We’re looking to transition them off of the benzodiazepine, especially if they were an alcoholic and try to get them on something that’s a non-narcotic that can maybe deal with any kind of stress or anxiety disorder that they have.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for pointing that out, because a hundred percent. And I remember this again from my lived experience and the people that I walked through those doors with. There were some people who struggled with benzos, and they basically said it was almost like alcohol in a pill version. So I think it’s super important to point that out.
Jessica Dueñas: So you mentioned your treatment facilities, their 30 day program. So tell us a little bit about what it’s like. Once people go in there, what services are they getting? What therapies are there kind of like? What does someone’s calendar look like when they’re a patient in a 30 day program with you all.
Robert Marino: Oh, yeah, for sure. So as soon as people walk in, we have a custom that they are greeted at the front door, they’re welcomed in. They’re toured around the facility if they haven’t prior toured already, and then we introduce them to all the staff. We introduce them to all the clients so they can come and and see everybody interacting. First.st Then we sit down and we do their intake process, which usually takes an hour or 2.
Robert Marino: We’re just getting all documentation signed a photo of the of the client for our Emr records and things like that logistical stuff.
Robert Marino: And then, after that, we’ll put them right in the group. They’re assigned their primary therapist. So you know, treatment at Rolling Hills recovery Center is pretty unique. Actually, so like a lot of treatment facilities. We are a trauma informed, evidence-based program. So all the modalities that we offer are backed by science to show that they work.
Robert Marino: So we implement cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing. But then we also mix in holistic therapy. So we have a music for recovery program that we like to implement. And it’s with this wonderful woman named Kathy. She’s 27 years sober, you know. She’s been instructing people musically for 20 years.
Robert Marino: but with that mix of her being 27 years sober and understanding how to therapeutically combine music. It’s such a wonderful experience to have. And it’s the same thing with our recovery. Yoga, that we have our Yoga instructor, Karen. She’s also in long-term sobriety. So it’s the same thing we’re showing them how to therapeutically do breathing exercises through Yoga guided sound bowl
Robert Marino: meditation reiki, and then also mixed with that you know her being in 20 years in recovery is also a plus, too. We also have equine therapy as well to where we take our clients out. They get to engage with horses. It shows them how to start trusting a little, bit. Right? Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Dueñas: You all listening, can’t see my smile.
Robert Marino: Right, right, right.
Jessica Dueñas: Hard equine therapy I like lit up, but anyway, keep going, Robert.
Robert Marino: Absolutely, you know. And it’s wonderful, too, because, you know, you see, individuals that are just so closed off from any kind of human interaction because of, like, you know, I was through some traumatic incidences in my time, right? And you know, to watch people come out of that shell and start to interact with the horse or another animal is a beautiful thing to see, because they’re starting to trust something that emotion is still there.
Robert Marino: that inkling that they care about anybody but themselves is an amazing thing to witness, because, as drug addicts and alcoholics, we are all so selfish and self-centered, right because it consumes us. And to start letting go of that behavior and and positively changing. It is a miracle in itself.
Jessica Dueñas: That I mean, I’m so impressed honestly to hear about all the offerings that you all have, because I just remember
Jessica Dueñas: from the different facilities that I went to. I stayed only at one that was a full on residential program that I was there for 35 days, and there was a lot of idle time for us, but there wasn’t. There really weren’t meaningful things for us to get into, and so pretty much in between like group therapy. And then, like we had, like, you know, alcohol and drug education kind of in between those things.
Jessica Dueñas: We just kind of sat around, and then we could go exercise if we wanted to, at the gym, but a lot of people just kind of sat around and vaped the whole time, and I remember being in one of the detox facilities that I went to.
Robert Marino: Again. There wasn’t really anything productive to do, and there was a lot of cigarette smoking, and you know, like somebody was like, well, you can just smoke. And I’m actually a non smoker. But there were times that I like picked up a cigarette and smoked it just because there was nothing else to do, and I was almost like, Well, I guess this is better than drinking myself to death, but I mean for the record I don’t smoke anymore. But
Robert Marino: right? And you know, and idle time is the devil’s playground whose grandmother hasn’t told him that right.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah.
Robert Marino: You know, but but what we do is we keep them busy enough, but it’s not overkill either, so we like to break up the monotony of treatment because a lot of people have been in treatment and myself included Group Group group group that gets old after a while, too. So as so we’re we’re mixing group therapy in with all these other modalities that we offer
Robert Marino: and also individual therapy sessions. Right? So. But what we’ll do is we’ll do. Okay, we’ll do an hour of group relapse prevention group. Let’s say, go, take a 15 min, smoke, break right. You come back. We’ll do the next group. Then we break it up. After that by incorporate guided sound bowl meditation. Then, after that is another holistic modality. So they’re just not sitting in a 1 chair all day long. So there’s some movement right? And you mentioned the gym, too. So all
Robert Marino: of our clients get full gym memberships. Actually, it’s not, you know, a dungeon in the basement with mismatch, dumbbells and a treadmill, you know you’re going to an actual fitness. Gym, we take. We load up all of our clients in a van, and we bring them over there 3 or 4 times a week. So they have that access and that healthy outlet as well.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that that’s awesome. And you know, for anyone listening knows who knows that I love books. I think about the book. The body keeps the score by Bussell Vander Koch, and just how he talks about the alternative therapies where people really do need to get into their bodies and into movement. So again, I think that that’s all super cool
Jessica Dueñas: thinking about pros and cons of going to treatment. You know, I think one of the biggest reasons why I didn’t want to go was that I was really scared to take time away from work
Jessica Dueñas: at the time. I do have a daughter now, but at the time I didn’t have children. But I remember hearing, you know, other people who did have children who really were so upset about having to take time away from their families and things like that. What do you say to the person in that intake interview? That clearly it’s like red flags everywhere, giving, you know, given their substance use, and they really do need the treatment. But they have those concerns about work or their family. How do you all usually kind of like talk to them through. Talk them through that.
Robert Marino: Yeah. So there’s a lot of barriers for people to come into treatment right? And those are definitely 2 of the biggest ones. So work related barriers. It’s usually, you know, we can set people up with Fmla, which is the Family Medical Leave Act. So if they qualify for that 50 or more employees at the organization, the company that they work for. They’ve worked more than 1,250 h.
Robert Marino: They qualify for Fmla and our case management department will set that up, get it over to their Hr. Department, and then, once they’re qualified for Fmla, then they are now protected by Federal law that they cannot be fired because a lot of people don’t know. This is that addiction treatment is treated just the same as a woman leaving for pregnancy. Leave right? It’s covered underneath the Family Medical Leave Act to where you are protected from losing your job, and then, as far as the
Robert Marino: the family goes. You know what a lot of times our admissions coordinators need to gauge the person that they’re talking to. Right? It’s a lot of times our situation. We’re not calling up a treatment facility because things are going great. Right? You know that. And that’s just the reality behind it. So we try to challenge them on, you know. Are you being a proper mother or father?
Robert Marino: Are you being present? Are you just getting high or drunk all day long? Are you yelling and screaming at your children all day long? Are you just sitting there? An empty shell of a human being on the couch, scrolling through your phone and not? Are you not meeting your duties as a parent? Right? And that’s usually the selling point to somebody or not even the selling point. Just the mind just to open their mind and their eyes to that false reality that they could be
Robert Marino: living in at that current moment is that no, I’m not meeting the problem. I’m not treating my family the way I should be. And then that’s when we start to go into the next step in the process.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And you know, I think the other thing, too, that we can be so guilty of doing when we’re in active addiction is that we take the people in our lives for granted. And so for anybody who might be like, well, my kids are going to still be here, even if I don’t, you know, like I don’t need to go to treatment. I don’t want to leave my kids behind, but you don’t know if you know, the other parent could step in. You don’t know if you could ever, God forbid! Have an accident where the State steps in and removes your children
Jessica Dueñas: from your home because you didn’t address your addiction. And so I feel like anytime. I’ve had that conversation with someone who’s struggling and does have children. My reminder is yeah, like
Jessica Dueñas: they’re here today. But they might not be if you don’t get it together like, or your significant other like, who’s to say that your spouse. Your partner is going to want to continue to tolerate whatever you’re doing for another year another couple months, right like you don’t know when someone’s breaking point is, and they can just up and leave. So.
Robert Marino: And it’s like, you know. Take the chance. Come, take it, do it. Come into treatment because you are going to go home. A better parent. Right? I have 2 2 small daughters, and you know one’s 7 and one’s 3, and they have not had to see me take a sip of alcohol or do a drug since they’ve been alive right? And if they had, I was not
Robert Marino: suitable to raise children. Let me put it that way right? No, seriously, because I probably never would have been around, I would have been an absent parent. Right? And that’s just the reality of that. And you know once people understand that. Yes, I
Robert Marino: I can’t just do this for my children. I needed to do this for myself, to better my life, and then that is a byproduct of bettering your life. Now it starts to trickle in into the all the other facets of your life. So now you could become a better parent, become a better spouse, become a better worker, become a better friend. All the things that we neglected in when we were in our addiction.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so speaking of family, right? Let’s say, a family is looking for a treatment center for their loved one who is struggling. I firmly believe not. All treatment centers are created equal. And you know, I think, like you made mention of that earlier on that there are things that you don’t like in certain facilities that you’ve seen or experienced. So what should people be looking for when choosing a facility.
Robert Marino: That’s a great question. So number one is joint commission accreditation, right? Carf any kind of accreditation, any kind of
Robert Marino: government listing of a facility being on there, because, you know, digitally, there’s so many things out there these days that you can’t really tell who’s who and what we encourage is we want. Come and tour our facility. Come, sit down, meet with leadership. Come, see a day to day activity that the clients are doing. Come, see our house, I mean, as soon as they come. Like all of our clients, when they live in a 5,500 square foot mansion
Robert Marino: in ground swimming pool. It’s on 5 acres of land, you know. There’s memory foam mattresses in every single room with 55 inch flat screen TV. So as soon as they get there, they see that. Okay, this, this facility is the real deal, you know, because there’s a lot of facilities out there that will bait and switch you right. They know how to put the shiny objects, photos and stuff like that, and then you get there. And it’s not what you were expecting.
Robert Marino: So that’s a good. That’s a good thing to do is, you know, ask for a tour. Can I come, see your facility, and meet the staff first, st before I decide to enroll in your program.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, no, I think that that’s great. I know one of the things that I would say from the times that I had gone. We talked a little bit about this before I press record, but also the pathways to recovery. I think that one of my gripes with one of the places that I went to was that they force one type of recovery program over the others. And then they’re basically threatening to kick you out of their program if you don’t go
Jessica Dueñas: through a certain pathway. And I found that to be problem like again, I was compliant because I was just trying to. I was trying to live. So I was like, whatever you tell me to do, I’m just going to go ahead and do it, but I do recognize that some people will still get deterred if they’re being told to do something one specific way. So what do you think about that? Like facilities that offer multiple pathways or recognize that there’s multiple pathways to recovery.
Robert Marino: Oh, I love that, and I think that’s how it should be done. So even with rolling hills. Recovery Center, we
Robert Marino: you’re coming in, and you’re we’re putting together a treatment plan. That is evidence based for you. So this is, you know, psychotherapy, that that approach. But then we also have the options to go to outside Aana meetings, where we take all of our clients in the evening. So that’s we will set people up with smart recovery, and whatever the the solution, they they try to go that path. So yeah, no, we’re not closed off to any of those different treatment modalities at all. No.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, I think that that’s awesome. And so once someone has, I don’t know if you all call it graduate or completing the program, I think different facilities call it different things, but once someone finishes their 30 days, what’s next for them?
Robert Marino: So before they’re even.
Robert Marino: So, we have a 2 week discharge plan that we put together for an individual. So what 2 weeks before we know they’re about to discharge. We’re already working on what their next steps are going to be. And what does that look like so? And and what what I mean by that is.
Robert Marino: are they doing, Aarna? Can we find them? The list of all the local meetings in their town, their neighborhood? Are they continuing with a 1-on-one therapist. When they get out to continue the talk therapy, we’ll set them up with that. Meds, are they continuing? Do they need a psychiatrist to be able to go continue their medication, monitoring and prescribing. You know our alumni app.
Robert Marino: Beautiful thing! You know, we have so many people that are a member of our alumni community to where, you know, we have a chatter feature in there to where they engage with each other sobriety trackers meeting lists. There’s all kinds of different features within it, but they get to stay, get to stay connected with the community, and they get to help to have that extra layer of accountability when they 1st leave out of the program. And it’s such a beautiful thing.
Robert Marino: We once a month have our alumni meetings, and it’s it’s awesome when we see, you know, 30, 40 alumni come back and speak to the current clients in the program. Right? Because it shows them that. Hey, this is possible to stay sober. Once you walk out of the doors of a program. So we’re pretty serious about putting together that aftercare plan for them.
Jessica Dueñas: I love that. So I have. I love the alumni aspect of it. You know I don’t live in Kentucky anymore, which is where I did. Most of the treatment facility stays that I did, but I think, like the I still am actually really good friends. With one person I went to treatment with. And so the last time I was in treatment
Jessica Dueñas: there was in the summer of 2020. So you know, I’ve been friends with someone for 5 years that I was there in that residential treatment program with. And there’s something there’s something really special about the connection that you make with someone that you were in this space in right, like you walk in and you’re a disaster and you walk out.
Jessica Dueñas: You’re still a mess, right? But it’s like you’ve got a plan in place, and you you’re feeling hopeful for the future. And there’s something really special about that. So I love that you all have an alumni group, so folks can stay in touch with one another. I think that’s important.
Robert Marino: Because, you know, and that’s a part of this long term recovery, you know, because going to treatment in my experience is not a silver bullet right? Just because I go away for 30 days doesn’t mean that I’m cured of this thing. You know. I still need to do something something when I get out right. Whatever that looks like for you or the individual is what you need to continue on a day-to-day basis.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And I’m so glad that you mentioned the. It’s not a magic bullet thing. So for anyone listening again for those of you who know or don’t know from my story. I have been hospitalized about 7 or 8 times in the year of 2020, while I was trying to get sober, and all my different hospitalizations were a combination of either detox days, like, you know, 5 to 7 days up through the residential treatment facility, which was a 35 day visit.
Jessica Dueñas: and I promise you that every time that I landed back in a facility I was really pissed off at myself, and really frustrated and wanted to give up. But at the end of the day I knew that for me to give up would eventually mean dying, and so I just had to keep going, no matter how many times it took and back. Then I was super embarrassed that I had gone into hospitalization settings. What like 7 or 8 times. I don’t even remember it was really embarrassing back then.
Jessica Dueñas: But nowadays, when I say that I went to treatment, that many times I realize that it makes other people feel less ashamed of what they’re going through when they realize that they’re stumbling. So I’m so glad, Robert, that you mentioned that that going to treatment one time may not fix it all for some people it does, and they’re very fortunate. But some people it’s gonna take what it takes, and it might look messy, and it might look like a couple repeat visits. It doesn’t mean that the facilities want you
Jessica Dueñas: back, but if that’s what you need to do sometimes. That is what you have to do.
Robert Marino: You know what was one of the drivers for me, for continuing right after treatment was, I experienced something that I have not experienced probably, since I was a little kid. Joy, right? Happiness
Robert Marino: because I was dead on the inside. What we do is we have recreational therapy that we do, too. It’s not an actual therapeutic being overseen by clinicians.
Robert Marino: but they’re therapeutic activities. So we’ll take our clients, rock wall climbing, zip lining. They drove like the Nascar racing and like go karts around racetracks, movie night bowling. You know, whatever there’s a ton of different activities that we do. But this is to help show individuals that
Robert Marino: life is not over. You can still have fun. Right? You can tap back into the things that you’ve once loved in the past, like even through our art. You know we have a lot of clients that come in, and they are gifted right. They know how to draw. They know how to play musical instruments through the creative therapies, and you know they tap back into that. And then we have clients that leave, and then they continue to do that leisure activity that we took them out on when they were in treatment with us. You know we had one client that said that he hasn’t laughed like that in 10
Robert Marino: years. Imagine that you know life was so bad that you just couldn’t even laugh that hard for 10 years, and then you had to come out of that shell and get involved with others. And these fun activities to be able to have that experience that was a driver for me to keep going.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Speaking of joy, i. 1 of my favorite memories from being in my residential program was that we did have. They did let the residents. They would call them residents at this place. If we wanted to like, organize something, we could organize it right? So the staff was like the staff was supportive of it, but we kind of had to do it on our own. So me and this friend who I’m mentioning that I was in treatment with. We decided it would be really fun to do a karaoke night and like try to figure
Jessica Dueñas: it out. So one of the techs who worked at the facility she brought in a karaoke machine, and I had only ever in my life done karaoke drunk, and I only ever I never even remember doing karaoke all the years that I did karaoke, even though I loved it, and I remember being terrified to like
Jessica Dueñas: use the mic and just sing. And I did it, and I remember being like
Jessica Dueñas: holy shit. I can do this like I can do this sober right and like you said it opened the door so like now I’ve been sober almost 5 years, God willing, in November, and like I’ll do karaoke without a heart like I’m stumbling with my words. I will do, Karaoke, no matter what like. I don’t need to drink to do it, but I think that those are big Aha! Moments that people deserve to get that. They forget that they’re capable of those things. And so, myth busting.
Jessica Dueñas: I feel like we maybe touched a little bit on one myth right? That, like you go to treatment, and it can be totally boring, and it can be but a facility like yours clearly has a lot of engaging things going on for residents or clients. But what is a myth that you think needs to be busted right now about treatment facilities. What would you say.
Robert Marino: That life, that life is over right, that that’s the biggest thing that that I
Robert Marino: you’ve lost. Hope you have not like this. Just getting anywhere is a good start, right? And even though we were just talking about, you know, some facilities are not, as you know, great or up to par as other facilities. But you know my experience was, you know, like I said, I got sober in an indigent, homeless shelter program, but I was willing to go to any lengths, because I was so sick of the way that I was living.
Robert Marino: you know. Don’t let anything be a deterrent from getting into treatment at least starting the process. You know. I think that you know the biggest myth is that if I go to treatment that it’s not going to do anything for me.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. Yeah. And you know that idea of if I go to treatment, my life is over. No, your life is over. If your addiction takes your life from you like you’re still alive. Go to treatment and then live the rest of your life. But you know, if you just sit there, continuing to drink until you develop, you know, some complication from your alcohol use, or if you have like, a drug overdose or something like that, that’s when your life is really over, and then you leave everyone behind heartbroken. So I think, like you said, life is not over just because you’re going to treatment. That’s almost the beginning of like the next part of your life.
Jessica Dueñas: So my my last question for you, Robert, is, if someone listening is unsure of whether they’re quote unquote, bad enough to go. What would you say to them?
Robert Marino: As far bad enough to come to the program or.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, like, it’s like, I don’t think I’m bad enough to go to treatment. I don’t know, you know, if that’s kind of like what someone’s.
Robert Marino: You know, that’s not a mindset to be in, you know. If if you need treatment, make the phone call, you need treatment right? It’s there is. No, I’m worse off, or what we see the most is not that I’m bad enough, but not that I’m not bad enough, right? My story is not like these other people’s. That’s the one that it gets gets hidden a little bit because it’s the it’s the I have a 3. I have 2 cars in the garage. I have a family.
Robert Marino: right? And and I don’t know that I have that problem, that that’s the thing right. But and what we were talking about before. But am I that present family member? Am I that present parent? Right is is my. Does my wife and my husband communicate with me, or do they just go straight to bed every single night without talking to me
Robert Marino: right now? These are things to identify.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah. And I’m so glad that you mentioned like, yeah, I might have the 2 car garage. I might still have my family. I might still have a really good job. You all listening, we should know by now. Addiction does not discriminate. And so, just because you might have all the nice things. It does not mean that you don’t need help. There’s this quote that I love, and I’m going to pull it up. It’s from Laura Mccowan who wrote the memoir. We are the luckiest, and she wrote.
Jessica Dueñas: the normal question is, is this bad enough for me to have to change? The question we should be asking is, Is this good enough for me to stay the same?
Jessica Dueñas: And the real question underneath it all is, Am I free? Right? So y’all can have the 2 car garage. You can have the beautiful spouse. You can have the beautiful children, but if at the end of the day you are not free from whatever substance is holding you back. Then that is worth making a phone call and getting an assessment done at a treatment facility, whether it be the ones that Robert facilitates, or something closer to home to you all.
Jessica Dueñas: Go ahead.
Robert Marino: Anywhere, get any.
Robert Marino: Yeah, yeah
Robert Marino: program, you know. And I just want to say this, too, because this is one of the things that slips by people is that.
Robert Marino: you know this is a little bit more prevalent for drug addiction and alcoholism. But, like, you know, smoking, crack, or doing, heroin is not normal behavior. Right? Let’s just.
Jessica Dueñas: No.
Robert Marino: That that’s what needs to be registered. This is not normal. Okay? And then the faster somebody can say that to themselves, I think that they can get put on that trajectory to trying to get help. Alcohol is a little bit more cunning, because, you know, and one of the ways that I found to identify. This was once I once I start drinking. Can I stop right? Can I control my drinking? If I cannot control my drinking? It may be time to reach out to somebody.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, I love that you said the alcohol. What is it that they say in Aa alcohol is cunning, baffling, powerful. But yeah, I mean it really is. It’s sneaky as hell. Why? Because it’s legal. So you can buy this highly addictive substance as long as you’re over 21. No issue no problem. You can buy as much as much of it as you want to. But people don’t realize how addictive it is. People don’t realize how dangerous it is, and it’s so normalized and it’s embedded into every
Jessica Dueñas: part of society. It’s like, if you’re happy, you drink. If you’re struggling, you drink, and so absolutely, it is really sneaky. And it is cunning. And so just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s okay for you. If you have the red flags coming up. If you’re noticing, like, Robert said, that you want to stop and you can’t stop if you’re noticing that you’re hiding your drinking from loved ones because you don’t want to get judged right. A lot of us have this natural intuitive sense that
Jessica Dueñas: something is wrong, and we’d like to ignore it because we want to continue with the drinking. But yeah, you don’t have to continue being trapped.
Jessica Dueñas: So, Robert, how do people either follow you or follow your treatment facilities or your programs like, if people wanted to know more, where can they find out more about you or your programs.
Robert Marino: Absolutely. You know, we have big followings on all major social media platforms. You can go on Youtube, see videos about our program, client testimonials, virtual tours, Walkthrough, of the program from our leadership standpoint, and you can also visit us at rollinghillsrecoverycenter.com, or you can call us directly at (973) 606-9170. And that’s 24 HA day. We have admissions, representatives standing by.
Jessica Dueñas: Okay, perfect. Well, Robert, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, I think again, this conversation was so important for listeners who are asking themselves the question like, Do I need to do more than what I’ve been doing any last words for listeners before we wrap up.
Robert Marino: Just get call. If if you think that you need help, at least make the phone call and just entertain the assessment with the individual. If it’s local in your neighborhood. If you called us, get somebody on the phone, please. That’s all that matters.
Jessica Dueñas: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again, Robert, I really really appreciate your time today.
Robert Marino: Yeah, the pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much for having me.
In this episode, I open up about breaking the cycle of people-pleasing, learning to trust discomfort as a boundary, and why I’ll never force my daughter to smile, hug, or perform for anyone. If you’ve ever silenced your inner “no” to keep the peace, this one’s for you.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. For today’s episode, I want to talk about something I’ve been sitting with for a little bit of time now—as a mom, as a woman who grew up being told to perform for the sake of making other people comfortable, and also as someone in recovery.
Basically, I want to talk about the idea of not owing people our smile. And I know that sounds kind of random, but hear me out.
So, you probably know by now that I have a six-month-old daughter named Amara. And when I look at her, I see someone who feels deeply. Her full-body giggles light up a room—but only when she wants to. She is not generous with her smile, and she’s definitely not generous with her bubbly social energy. She keeps that for people like me or others she’s really close to.
And honestly, I’m okay with that. That’s exactly how I want it. I have no problems with her not being a big smiley baby to random strangers. In fact, it goes deeper than that for me.
I remember what it was like to be told to smile when I didn’t want to. I remember what it felt like to have my face, or my body, or my energy treated like it existed just to make other people feel better.
I grew up in New York—specifically Brooklyn—and by high school, I was commuting into Manhattan, taking the subway between boroughs. And if you’re a young teen girl in NYC, or honestly just a woman in general, you probably know where this is going.
I remember strange men telling me to smile. “Why are you looking so mean?” or “You’d be prettier if you smiled.” Like—first of all—I wasn’t even thinking. That was just my resting face. But they made me feel so uncomfortable, so unsafe. And I knew that if I challenged them, it could escalate. We all know from social media just how chaotic and unsafe the subway can be. So imagine being a teenager, hearing that kind of talk from grown men. It felt threatening, and I didn’t feel like I had the option to say anything back.
And it wasn’t just strangers on the subway. At home, I had family members who insisted on hugs, kisses, conversations that I didn’t feel like giving. And when I resisted, I was told I was being rude or too sensitive. Back then, I didn’t even have the language to say the word “boundary”—but that’s what I was trying to set.
Early on, I learned that compliance was praised. Resistance—even quiet resistance—was shamed. So I learned to smile when I didn’t want to. I stayed in rooms when I wanted to leave. I quieted that voice inside that said, “Something is off.”
There’s one moment that stands out. I was a teenager, and a male family member I hadn’t seen in years visited. He looked me up and down and said in Spanish, “Damn, you got fat.” Right in front of my parents. Then he actually asked me how much I weighed. A grown man, asking a teenage girl that question—and he really expected an answer. What hurt even more? No one stepped in. Not my parents, not the other adults. I felt hot with shame. My body felt like public property—something to be measured and commented on.
There were no boundaries. And no one helped create them for me either.
That kind of disconnection followed me into adulthood. And definitely into my drinking years. Because when you’re trained to ignore your discomfort, you lose the ability to trust your gut. You end up laughing when you’re uneasy. Staying quiet when you want to scream. You stay in jobs, relationships, conversations that drain you—because asserting your needs feels dangerous.
For years, I drank to silence the internal no I didn’t feel safe saying out loud. I didn’t want to rock the boat.
But sobriety has taught me something powerful: discomfort is not something to be ashamed of. Discomfort is often our body’s first signal that something isn’t right. It’s our body trying to protect us.
So yeah, setting boundaries is uncomfortable. Especially when it’s with someone I love, and I see the disappointment on their face. But it has been some of the most necessary healing work I’ve ever done.
Now I have a baby. And I get to break the cycle.
When I look at Amara, I don’t just see my daughter—I see a chance to do things differently.
Now, this next part might sound funny because I’m usually not into astrology, energy types, or human design. Normally, I scroll right past that stuff. But I did my own human design chart recently, and surprisingly, it actually made a lot of sense for me. So I decided to do Amara’s too.
According to her chart, she’s a “manifester,” which means she’s here to initiate—not follow. Her energy comes in bursts, and peace is sacred for her. One piece of advice I read was that when I see her experiencing frustration or going quiet, I should slow down and pay attention—because those are her signals.
Reading that really resonated. It reminded me of how important it is not to shape her into someone who’s convenient for the world. I want her to trust her inner voice before the world teaches her to ignore it.
So no, I’m not going to tell her to smile at strangers. I’ll find it incredibly charming that she’s serious. I won’t force her to hug people just because they’re family—honestly, I won’t hug them either. If she wants space, she’ll get it. If she feels uneasy, I’ll listen instead of dismissing her.
And when she does offer joy, I’m going to savor it. Because that means it came from her choice—not from being told to perform. And that’s a gift.
Amara’s not here to please. Yes, she pleases me, and yes, she entertains me—because she’s hilarious—but that’s not her job. Her job is to just be. Fully. Emotionally. And as her intuition grows, my job is to protect that.
There’s a quote I love by therapist and author Nedra Glover Tawwab. She says:
“It’s okay for a small child to set limits—like not eating meat or feeling uncomfortable around certain people. Parents who respect those boundaries make space for their children to feel safe and loved. When parents ignore those preferences, children feel lonely and like their needs don’t matter—and they’ll likely struggle with their boundaries as adults.”
And yeah, I know that struggle intimately. But just because that was my struggle doesn’t mean it has to be Amara’s. At the end of the day, the world can earn her smile. I’m not going to make her give it away.
Before I wrap up, I want to leave you with a few scenarios. Just some food for thought:
1. A Stranger on the Street Imagine heading into work and someone calls out, “Smile!”—just like those men used to do to me. If you’re part of a marginalized group—whether you’re a woman, a person of color, queer—talking back isn’t always safe. Choosing silence is not a failure. It can be survival. Ask yourself: How do I wish I could respond in a world where safety wasn’t an issue? Or How do I usually respond, and how do I feel afterward? Can you set a quiet boundary just for yourself?
2. Uncomfortable Family Comments Let’s say someone makes a loud, unsolicited comment about your body or your life at a family gathering. What would it take for you to say, “That’s not okay with me”? What systems—cultural, generational, emotional—make that difficult? And how can you protect yourself with compassion, even if you can’t speak up?
3. A Child Being Asked to Hug Someone You’re with a child you love—maybe your own, maybe a niece or nephew—and someone says, “Come give me a hug,” but the child says no. You might feel pressure to encourage it, but pause. Ask: What message are we sending the child if we override their choice? What message do they receive if we say, “That’s okay—you don’t have to”? How can we honor consent, even when it disrupts what we were taught?
Just some things to sit with. And remember:
Whatever your boundaries are, they don’t make you difficult. Whatever discomfort you’re feeling—it’s not a flaw. It’s a signal. You don’t have to perform for anyone.
So I’ll leave you with this question: What part of you is still performing—to stay safe, or to create safety for yourself? And what would it feel like to stop—just for a moment—and choose yourself instead?
Alright, y’all. Thanks for being here with me today. If this resonated, share it with someone or leave a positive review. I’ll catch you next time.
In this episode, I talk with debut author Jessica Guerrieri about her novel Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, a raw, honest story about addiction, motherhood, and recovery. We dive into why she chose fiction over memoir, how mommy wine culture harms more than it helps, and what it took for her to leave teaching.
If you’ve ever felt ashamed, stuck, or unsure how you got here, this one’s for you. Jessica’s story is a powerful reminder that healing is possible, alcohol can trap anyone, and you’re not alone.
Jessica Dueñas: Hey everyone, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober. I’m really excited for today’s episode because we have a special guest: debut author Jessica Guerrieri. She’s a California-based writer, a mother of three, and the author of the new novel Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.
Fun fact — Jessica, like me, is also a former special education teacher. She left the classroom to pursue recovery, motherhood, and writing. She’s been sober for 12 years, and in her book, she writes about addiction and motherhood with such powerful honesty.
I’ve only been a mom for six months — those of you who listen know that — but there are so many things she explores in this novel that resonate deeply. The way she portrays relationships, motherhood, and the journey toward wholeness is just… beautiful.
Some of the women in my sobriety support meetings through The Luckiest Club have read this book and shared how much it moved them. So I’m truly honored to have the author here with us today. Welcome, Jessica!
Jessica Guerrieri: So glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jessica Dueñas: Let’s start with your novel, Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. It offers such a layered portrayal of a woman navigating the weight of motherhood and alcohol addiction. What made you want to tell Leah’s story — and why now?
Jessica Guerrieri: I wanted to write something really honest from the perspective of someone who made it to the other side of addiction. I’ve read a lot of books and memoirs, but I hadn’t found one that captured the gut punch I was trying to encapsulate — especially for moms.
We’re surrounded by mommy wine culture, and it’s been especially rampant during the pandemic. Ads were everywhere saying, “It’s 5 o’clock somewhere,” encouraging us to drink to cope. I wanted to show what happens when you follow that path all the way down — not to shame anyone, but to make moms feel less alone.
Jessica Dueñas: Yes! One woman in my support group said reading your book was like looking in the mirror — every page felt uncomfortably familiar. That really speaks volumes. I also love that you essentially wrote the book you needed. That’s so powerful.
But I’m curious: why tell this story through fiction instead of memoir, especially when it’s so close to your lived experience?
Jessica Guerrieri: That’s such a good question. I do have a memoir proposal that’s ready for submission — it’s an option my agent and I have discussed. But fiction felt safer, both for me and for the reader.
If you’re browsing the self-help aisle for books on addiction, you’re already on a journey. But if someone stumbles upon Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea while browsing women’s fiction, it can plant a seed. They may recognize pieces of themselves without feeling exposed or judged.
Fiction also allowed me to be creative — to explore different worlds like Half Moon Bay, which is my favorite beach community. My sister is a surfer, and I wanted to include that poetic connection to the ocean. So while Leah is absolutely based on me in some ways — we’re both 6’1”, for starters — I also had the freedom to create a new version of myself.
Jessica Dueñas: Have people ever asked, “So… are you Leah?”
Jessica Guerrieri: Oh, of course! And honestly, I do it to myself, too. Leah is definitely my shadow self. But one key difference is that I got sober before becoming a mom.
Still, during the pandemic, I explored other substances besides alcohol and realized — yep — if I can abuse it, I will. So while I didn’t drink during motherhood, I’ve experienced addiction in different forms. It all felt the same — that vortex that sucks the life out of you — and that’s what I wrote from.
Jessica Dueñas: That’s so powerful. You wrote Leah’s addiction so viscerally that even knowing your background, I was convinced you had lived it exactly.
So many people think addiction only looks one way, or only happens to certain people. But your novel shows how layered and universal it can be. I love that you used fiction to give readers the space to explore it safely.
Jessica Guerrieri: Exactly. Writing is my healthiest form of escape now — it’s my form of healing. Reading and writing have literally saved me. Fiction gives me that safe place to explore pain and possibility.
Jessica Dueñas: I read your Huffington Post piece where you wrote about using alcohol to silence parts of yourself. When did you realize that silence wasn’t working anymore?
Jessica Guerrieri: There’s a phrase in recovery: “Half measures availed us nothing.” I kept trying to moderate — switching from hard liquor to wine, counting drinks, making rules — and nothing worked.
I considered myself emotionally intelligent, but I couldn’t outsmart this. I couldn’t stop putting myself in humiliating situations.
One morning, I woke up, sick again, throwing up in the sink — because I’d learned that was better than the toilet. I looked in the mirror and didn’t recognize myself. And I heard this voice — maybe a hallucination — say, “Haven’t you had enough yet?”
And somehow, in that moment, I said, “Yes.” I told on myself. I told my husband, my friends, my family. That was my turning point.
Jessica Dueñas: Thank you for sharing that. So many of us try to hide it or fix it on our own. But the shift comes when we speak the truth — when we finally say, “I need help.”
You also wrote about being an oversharer when drinking — how you’d tell anyone anything. What does healthy vulnerability look like for you now?
Jessica Guerrieri: That’s something I had to learn. Vulnerability is still how I connect with people, but now it comes with boundaries. Before, I would overshare to be liked or to trauma-dump.
Now, I ask: is this a safe space? Am I sharing something personal, or something universal? Writing gives me a place to explore the universal truths that help people feel less alone — and that’s what I’m most passionate about.
Jessica Dueñas: That makes so much sense. And speaking of writing — you’ve got a second book on the way! Is it a continuation of Leah’s story?
Jessica Guerrieri: Nope! Totally new story. It’s called Both Can Be True and it’s told from the perspective of two estranged sisters who are brought back together by a missing woman. It still explores addiction and relationships, but this time I wanted to dig into long-term marriage and the deep friendships between women. It’s a different lens, but still rooted in recovery and connection.
Jessica Dueñas: That sounds incredible. I’m so glad you’re continuing to write in ways that invite important conversations.
Before we wrap up, what’s one message you’d want to leave with a listener who feels stuck or ashamed of where they are right now?
Jessica Guerrieri: You’re not alone. There is so much hope.
Twelve years ago, I was passing out every night, mixing alcohol with sleeping pills, and waking up to drink again. I was a shell of a person. But everything that I am today — a mom, a writer, someone who gets to travel and speak about recovery — it’s all because of sobriety.
Those parts of me were always there — they were just buried by addiction. You are not broken beyond repair. There is more waiting for you than you can possibly imagine.
Jessica Dueñas: That is so beautiful. I was reminded of a quote by Laura McKowen, founder of The Luckiest Club. She says, “If you could see even a fraction of what’s possible for you, you would fall to your knees and cry.”
It’s so true. We just have to take that first brave step.
Before we go — where can people find you and your work?
Jessica Guerrieri: You can find me on Instagram at @jessicaguerrieriauthor, and my website is jessicaguerrieri.net. You’ll find all my writing there — from the book to personal essays and even my old mom blog.
I’m also on TikTok @jessstaysober, but Instagram is the best place to connect.
Jessica Dueñas: Awesome. And Jessica’s book, Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, is out now — you can find it anywhere books are sold, or request it at your local bookstore.
Jessica, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation.
In this episode, I unpack the sneaky ways dopamine keeps us chasing more, whether it’s achievements, shopping, or relationships, and why it never actually brings peace. I share personal stories from my own recovery and offer reflection questions to help you step off the treadmill of ‘never enough.’
Transcript: Hey y’all, welcome back to Bottomless to Sober.
Today we’re actually going to dive into something that I think every single one of us in recovery—or honestly, just in life—has experienced and can totally relate to: the chase.
You know what I’m talking about—thinking that the next drink, the next relationship, the next Amazon cart full of stuff, or the next accomplishment is going to finally make you feel okay.
Well, fun fact: our brains are actually kind of set up to trick us into believing that—even when it’s not true.
I recently shared the following quote in a sobriety support meeting, and it’s so powerful I had to bring it here too. I’m currently leading a book study on The Molecule of More by Daniel Lieberman and Michael Long. If you haven’t read it, I definitely recommend picking it up—it’s full of valuable insights.
Here’s the quote: “Giving in to craving doesn’t necessarily lead to pleasure, because wanting is different from liking. Dopamine makes promises that it is in no position to keep. ‘If you buy these shoes, your life will change,’ says the desire circuit. And it just might happen—but not because dopamine made you feel it.”
Let that sink in. I want to unpack it a little.
Dopamine—it’s the brain chemical we all have. It drives desire, ambition, and craving. It motivates us to go after things. For a long time, people thought dopamine was linked to pleasure, but it’s actually not. It’s about the chase. The wanting. The desire.
So basically, dopamine says to your brain, “Hey! Look over there! That’s the answer to your emptiness.” But what dopamine can’t do is deliver satisfaction. So once you get the thing you were chasing, you actually feel kind of flat. It doesn’t bring you peace. It doesn’t give you a sense of enoughness, even though you were sure it would.
Now, in active addiction, this is obvious. You crave a drink, you get the drink, and maybe for a split second—like 15 or 20 minutes—you feel relief. But it never lasts. And usually, you end up feeling worse.
What I’ve learned—and maybe you have too—is that just because we quit drinking doesn’t mean that pattern goes away. That behavior doesn’t magically disappear in sobriety.
Instead, the bottle often gets replaced with other dopamine-driven habits. We might find ourselves overeating—or obsessing over what we’re going to eat. Some of us fall into serial dating, desperate to feel wanted. Others go on shopping sprees they later regret. Or we overwork, overhelp, overachieve… even chase perfect recovery. (And if that last one resonates, check out my episode from last week!)
Here’s the thing: this dopamine-driven chase doesn’t just live in our past. It shows up in our present in really quiet, sneaky ways.
Let me paint a few pictures.
Dating apps. You’re lying in bed at night, swiping through profiles. You’re not even sure what you’re looking for. You just want to feel something. Maybe it’s the buzz of a match or the ping of attention. But how do you feel after the date? Or after that fifth match fizzles out? You might actually feel lonelier.
Because what you wanted wasn’t just attention—you wanted connection. And dopamine can’t give you that.
Achievement highs. You’re doing great at work or school. You get that praise or encouraging message from your boss or professor. It feels amazing—for 10 minutes. Then you’re already spiraling about your next deadline. You don’t even get to enjoy your win because you’re already chasing what’s next.
Shopping spirals. You’ve been two years sober. You’ve had a rough week. You walk into Target for one thing… and end up with a cart full of candles, notebooks, throw pillows—all promising comfort. But after checkout, loading up your car, you feel like crap. Like something’s still missing.
These are all examples of dopamine doing its job—pushing us toward more, pushing us toward the chase. But once we attain these things, they don’t bring us peace.
Because peace doesn’t live in the chase.
When we’re chasing, we’re not practicing gratitude. We’re not practicing mindfulness. We’re not present.
In my own life, a few months into early sobriety, I was convinced that if I could just get everything together, I’d feel better. Like, if I could become the most high-functioning sober woman ever, maybe I’d finally be okay.
So I started doing everything I saw other people doing: waking up at 5 a.m., journaling, meditating, exercising, eating clean, being of service, doing great at work—all while healing deep wounds from trauma and grief.
That’s… a lot. A lot, a lot.
And on paper, it looked like I was thriving. I was proud of myself. But I still felt exhausted and disconnected—almost like I did when I was drinking. Because I was trying to outrun my shame with sober achievements.
But I was still lonely. Still sad. That’s when it hit me—especially after learning more about dopamine. “Oh. I’m chasing that high. I’m chasing the gold stars.” But none of it means anything if I don’t feel present in my own life. If I can’t just sit with myself without trying to earn my worth, I’ll always struggle.
At the end of the day, I had to realize that: Wanting is not the same as liking. How many times have we wanted something badly, only to feel “meh” once we got it? Or worse, it didn’t fill the void at all?
That’s dopamine. Making promises it can’t keep.
But here’s the good news: once we recognize the pattern, we can interrupt it.
We can pause and ask: “Does this feel urgent because it’s real? Or is this just the high of the chase talking?”
When we start asking those questions, we can come back to ourselves.
And we can also ask, “How can I tell when I’ve actually had enough?”
For me, it’s in the quiet moments: My daughter—she’s almost six months old now—has started laughing. And when she laughs, she doesn’t care about what she looks like or what anyone thinks. She’s just present.
Or when my dog Cruz curls up next to me. Or when I write, just to get things off my chest—not to prove anything. Or when I’m with people who love me, no matter what.
Those moments don’t spike my dopamine. They anchor me. They keep me grounded.
And look—it’s okay to want things. Dopamine isn’t bad. It’s good to have goals. It’s good to feel motivated.
But it’s also important to remember: dopamine won’t give you peace. Peace comes from being present. From letting ourselves be enough right now.
Dopamine is future-based. Peace is present-based.
So before we wrap up, here are a few questions for you to reflect on. If you’re journaling, feel free to pause and write them down:
Can you think of a time—either in active addiction or recovery—when chasing something left you feeling more empty than fulfilled? (It doesn’t have to be alcohol or your substance of choice.)
How do you notice the difference between wanting something and truly enjoying it?
What helps you recognize when you’ve already had enough? And how do you stay grounded in that feeling?
I hope those questions offer some guidance.
Thank you so much for spending time with me today. And remember: if you’ve ever felt like you’re stuck on a treadmill of achievement or caught in the loop of “once I get this, then I’ll feel better”—you are not alone. That is not a personal failure. That’s just some funky brain chemistry.
But the good news is: you can get off the treadmill. You can pause. You can practice presence.
It takes effort—it’s not natural—but that’s where freedom lives.
Until next time, take care of yourselves. Have a wonderful week. Bye.
